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Vertical warning lights - how common?

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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby Peter Gibbons » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:07 pm

Kingsferry Lifting Bridge, to the Isle of Sheppey, although not a level crossing, carries both road and rail traffic, is operated by Network Rail staff, and has vertical flashing lights on the east side of the road only in both directions, simply because conventional flashing lights would probably be be struck by either road or rail traffic. Conventional flashing lights are installed on the west side of the bridge in both directions as this has a footpath.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby LlaniGraham » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:51 pm

Marshbrook LX, just north of Craven Arms, has a vertical set of WigWags:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.50362 ... 6656?hl=en
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby scarpa » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:30 pm

Remember on the post is a sign saying STOP WHEN THE LIGHTS SHOW.Highway Code describes them as Traffic signals section 266.Is the UK the only country in world which uses the amber warning light?Is there a maximum road speed limit applicable for the different types of crossings.Are sighting distances allowed for the traffic signals with due regard to road speed limit.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby AN106 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:24 am

LlaniGraham wrote:
John wrote:The narrow wig wags in the second photo are quite rare and are used where clearances do not allow the normal wig wag They need special authorisation from DfT. The vertical (in third picture) wig-wag is unlawful and always has been.


Can you provide documentary evidence of that statement, please?


Answering on behalf of John:

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, paragraph 39(1) reads

Light signals for the control of traffic at level crossings, swinging or lifting bridges,
tunnels, airfields or in the vicinity of premises used regularly by fire, police or ambulance service
vehicles shall—

(a) be of the size, colour and type shown in diagram 3014;
(b) be illuminated in the sequence prescribed by paragraph (2); and
(c) have ES compliant signal heads.

Diagram 3014 is the standard arrangement of two horizontal red flashing lights with an amber light beneath, to within permitted dimensions and no permitted variants.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:46 am

scarpa wrote:Is the UK the only country in world which uses the amber warning light?


Germany uses a yellow light, but only a single, steady not flashing, red light. The red light is mounted vertically above the yellow light - in effect a two-aspect (without green) traffic light.

In Belgium, there is a white flashing light below the pair of red flashing lights, its purpose is, however, quite different. It flashes continuously (other than when the red lights are flashing) to show that the electrical supply is functioning. The lights are supplemented by a red/white St. Andrew's cross (multiple crosses where there is more than one track to be crossed).
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby ex Probationer » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:58 am

AN106 wrote:
LlaniGraham wrote:
John wrote:The narrow wig wags in the second photo are quite rare and are used where clearances do not allow the normal wig wag They need special authorisation from DfT. The vertical (in third picture) wig-wag is unlawful and always has been.


Can you provide documentary evidence of that statement, please?


Answering on behalf of John:

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, paragraph 39(1) reads

Light signals for the control of traffic at level crossings, swinging or lifting bridges,
tunnels, airfields or in the vicinity of premises used regularly by fire, police or ambulance service
vehicles shall—

(a) be of the size, colour and type shown in diagram 3014;
(b) be illuminated in the sequence prescribed by paragraph (2); and
(c) have ES compliant signal heads.

Diagram 3014 is the standard arrangement of two horizontal red flashing lights with an amber light beneath, to within permitted dimensions and no permitted variants.



I suppose the question that has to be asked is whether any new standards/legislation require retrospective action?

If not, then it is quite likely that non standard signage/road lights would remain untouched for many years, until any changes/alteration take place when presumably they would need to be renewed to current standards.

This is clearly what has occured at Elmswell, the non standard road lights have been renewed with LED types which meet the current standards.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby Stuart Johnson » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:02 pm

The point here, though, is that the vertical arrangement has never been legal, and was presumably tried experimentally at Elmswell (as I understand it, it wasn't there for very long), then replaced with the standard wig-wag when the experiment was concluded.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby LlaniGraham » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:37 pm

AN106 wrote:Answering on behalf of John:

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, paragraph 39(1) reads

Light signals for the control of traffic at level crossings, swinging or lifting bridges,
tunnels, airfields or in the vicinity of premises used regularly by fire, police or ambulance service
vehicles shall—

(a) be of the size, colour and type shown in diagram 3014;
(b) be illuminated in the sequence prescribed by paragraph (2); and
(c) have ES compliant signal heads.

Diagram 3014 is the standard arrangement of two horizontal red flashing lights with an amber light beneath, to within permitted dimensions and no permitted variants.


But as has been stated earlier, the basic design can be altered on a case by case basis upon discussion and agreement with the Ministry.
For example the standard ones would be impossible at Marshbrook due to the narrowness of the road and the junction immediately at the crossing.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:00 pm

Peter Gibbons wrote:Kingsferry Lifting Bridge, to the Isle of Sheppey, although not a level crossing, carries both road and rail traffic, is operated by Network Rail staff, and has vertical flashing lights on the east side of the road only in both directions, simply because conventional flashing lights would probably be be struck by either road or rail traffic. Conventional flashing lights are installed on the west side of the bridge in both directions as this has a footpath.


That is interesting because I believe those lights have been in situ since the bridge opened c1960, which would mean that they actually predate the current "suite" of road traffic sign regulations which were initiated in about 1963 (although it was then a year or so before the new signage started to appear and to replace existing signs).
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby ex Probationer » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:37 am

Stuart Johnson wrote:The point here, though, is that the vertical arrangement has never been legal, and was presumably tried experimentally at Elmswell (as I understand it, it wasn't there for very long), then replaced with the standard wig-wag when the experiment was concluded.


I disagree, the original roadlights would have been provided in accordance with the Level Crossing Order(1984/5) which I believe would have been approved at that time by the Ministry of Transport, so I'm not sure why you think they were not legal.

Also, the roadlights at Elmswell were never tried as an experiment and later replaced with a standard roadlight. My photograph of the vertical lights at Elmswell was taken in 2011.

The previous gated crossing at Elmswell was renewed as part of the Colchester resignalling in 1985, the upside vertical roadlight was provided because a large warehouse was immediately in front of Up Offside(YO) roadlight which limited the visibity. This warehouse was demolished many years ago and replaced by an open grass area. No changes have been made to the specified crossing lights since 1985. In 2013 the road lights were upgraded to LED and a redundunt Up Nearside Auxillary(YN(2)) roadlight was removed which would have required a change to the Level Crossing Order.
Last edited by ex Probationer on Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby ex Probationer » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:14 am

Peter Gibbons wrote:Kingsferry Lifting Bridge, to the Isle of Sheppey, although not a level crossing, carries both road and rail traffic, is operated by Network Rail staff, and has vertical flashing lights on the east side of the road only in both directions, simply because conventional flashing lights would probably be be struck by either road or rail traffic. Conventional flashing lights are installed on the west side of the bridge in both directions as this has a footpath.


The following photo shows this, except vertical lights are provided on both approaches adjacent to the railway.

Kingsferry Lifting Bridge
Image
Photo taken by ex_Probationer on 25/04/2012
Last edited by ex Probationer on Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby Stuart Johnson » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:56 am

ex Probationer wrote:
Stuart Johnson wrote:The point here, though, is that the vertical arrangement has never been legal, and was presumably tried experimentally at Elmswell (as I understand it, it wasn't there for very long), then replaced with the standard wig-wag when the experiment was concluded.


I disagree, the original roadlights would have been provided in accordance with the Level Crossing Order(1984/5) which I believe would have been approved at that time by the Ministry of Transport, so I'm not sure why you think they were not legal.

Also, the roadlights at Elmswell were never tried as an experiment and later replaced with a standard roadlight. My photograph of the vertical lights at Elmswell was taken in 2011.

The previous gated crossing at Elmswell was renewed as part of the Colchester resignalling in 1985, the upside vertical roadlight was provided because a large warehouse was immediately in front of Up Offside(YO) roadlight which limited the visibity. This warehouse was demolished many years ago and replaced by an open grass area. No changes have been made to the specified crossing lights since 1985. In 2013 the road lights were upgraded to LED and a redundunt Up Nearside Auxillary(YN(2)) roadlight was removed which would have required a change to the Level Crossing Order.

My apologies for misunderstanding your previous posts. As others have said, the vertical arrangement is not legal without specific sanction, which could have been given by the 1985 Crossing Order. Was your more recent picture (of the standard arrangement on the nearside, posted here, taken following the 2013 change?
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby ex Probationer » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:37 pm

Stuart Johnson wrote:
ex Probationer wrote:
Stuart Johnson wrote:The point here, though, is that the vertical arrangement has never been legal, and was presumably tried experimentally at Elmswell (as I understand it, it wasn't there for very long), then replaced with the standard wig-wag when the experiment was concluded.


I disagree, the original roadlights would have been provided in accordance with the Level Crossing Order(1984/5) which I believe would have been approved at that time by the Ministry of Transport, so I'm not sure why you think they were not legal.

Also, the roadlights at Elmswell were never tried as an experiment and later replaced with a standard roadlight. My photograph of the vertical lights at Elmswell was taken in 2011.

The previous gated crossing at Elmswell was renewed as part of the Colchester resignalling in 1985, the upside vertical roadlight was provided because a large warehouse was immediately in front of Up Offside(YO) roadlight which limited the visibity. This warehouse was demolished many years ago and replaced by an open grass area. No changes have been made to the specified crossing lights since 1985. In 2013 the road lights were upgraded to LED and a redundunt Up Nearside Auxillary(YN(2)) roadlight was removed which would have required a change to the Level Crossing Order.

My apologies for misunderstanding your previous posts. As others have said, the vertical arrangement is not legal without specific sanction, which could have been given by the 1985 Crossing Order. Was your more recent picture (of the standard arrangement on the nearside, posted here, taken following the 2013 change?


Yes, the most recent photo of Elmswell was taken earlier this year. To avoid further confusion, I have edited my first post to improve the description of the Elmswell roadlight arrangement and have also clearly titled and dated the photos.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:06 pm

Surely the lights at this Kingsferry Lifting Bridge would be legally enforceable as there is a compliant set of lights as well as the non-compliant set? I've seen road traffic lights working and traffic flowing quite happily where one of the posts has been demolished by a collision. I don't see why you cant still prosecute if for example only the nearside flashing red lights at a fire station or level crossing were working. Whether the circuitry would allow the railway to signal a train over it might be another matter.
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Re: Vertical warning lights - how common?

Unread postby LlaniGraham » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:38 am

Mike Hodgson wrote:Surely the lights at this Kingsferry Lifting Bridge would be legally enforceable as there is a compliant set of lights as well as the non-compliant set? I've seen road traffic lights working and traffic flowing quite happily where one of the posts has been demolished by a collision. I don't see why you cant still prosecute if for example only the nearside flashing red lights at a fire station or level crossing were working. Whether the circuitry would allow the railway to signal a train over it might be another matter.


Just as there are at Marshbrook.
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