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Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

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Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby lulfan » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:08 pm

Good afternoon to all of you

It was suggested by a mod at District Dave forum I posted my question here



signals21.jpg


My model is BR LMR in the eary to mid 1960's

I wonder if anyone here can help me, placing semaphore signals on my layout ?

this is the BR part of my BR/ LU layout

I'm using the ratio kits but the signals won't move, they'll be static.

I'm no artist (as you'll see) but I've attached a drawing and each signal that I think I need has got a letter next to it

Starting at the top station, as well as through trains on each line, trains can reverse from either direction. A train can come into Platform 2 and reverse over the cross over, since it's a passenger move, I guess I need home signal C

Trains can also enter Platform 1, and then proceed empty pass the cross over, then reverse over the cross over and pick up passengers again from Platform 2 - so I'm guessing I need a shunt signal, next to home B

Then the main station is again a through station, the same reverse features as the top one, so I think I need a shunt signal as well as home E

Trains coming from the right can also take the left hand branch at home G, where they can obtain the loop line, avoiding the station. if it's a pick-up goods, it could uncouple from the trucks, the loco running wrong road through the station and then back onto the rear of the goods train which could then move forward into the head shunt and then shunt into either coal or goods shed sidings

You'll see there's also a 2 road engine shed, I've no idea how to signal that, and of course, the loop would also be used by the pick-up goods if necessary, to run round it's train via the platform, running the right way to move off to it's next station

The track layouts are of course complete fiction and there's probably a lot wrong with them

The signalling doesn't have to be 100% correct for the layout, it just needs to look right

Unfortunately, it's too late now to change any of the track layout, but I'd be really grateful for any help with the placement of the signals
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby MRFS » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:35 pm

Welcome along - it was me over there that suggested you join here.

As a first response, I wouldn't have thought I and H would have been bracket signals, but discs, as well as having some disc signals coming out of the sidings.
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby lulfan » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:41 pm

"some disc signals coming out of the sidings"

that's good less kit building to do

The ratio kits are a real fiddle and the instructions ar not always very clear
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby kbarber » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:12 am

I'm not quite sure whether you're thinking of the loop as part of the goods facilities or a running line in its own right. In either case it would need a trap point at the left-hand end, to protect the passenger running lines (if it's too late to put one in, I'd suggest finding a couple of spare point blades & glueing them down to make it look something like a trap - as you don't want the signals to work, a non-working trap shouldn't be a problem either). That left-hand end of the loop probably needs a 'home' signal for the outlet - a short-arm signal ought to suffice. There also needs to be a signal opposite H for trains going from left to right, to control the outlet in that direction; again a short-arm signal might well be provided here.

If the loop is simply part of the goods yard then as MRFS says there's no need for bracket signals. More to the point, there's no need for any signals within the loop - just inlet & outlet signals will cover everything. If the loop is intended to be a running line, I'd suggest the inlet signals be a small arm on a miniature bracket. I'll come back to that in a moment. you'd then need a disc each to read out of the headshunt, the goods shed and the coal/engine shed lines. The latter should go just to the left of the bottom-most crossover points and could be a yellow disc. I'd then suggest either a double disc at each of I and H or a triple disc at H only to control entry into those lines.

For trains travelling right to left, the outermost home signal (G) needs to be to the right of the trailing crossover. If the loop is part of the yard the disc would just be near the foot of the post. If it's a running line, a miniature arm on a small bracket cantilevered to the left of the post would be about right. There's no need for a distant anywhere on this signal. The home signal F isn't necessary at all.

For trains travelling left to right, you do need a bracket (because of the facing crossover) and it needs to be out to the left of the crossover. The left hand doll will be the higher one and read to platform 1, there will be lower doll to the right of it with another main arm reading to 2. I'd think there might be a 3rd doll - the shortest of the 3 and further to the right, with a miniature arm reading into the loop (if you're going to use a disc to go into the loop it could be either in place of that 3rd doll or on the ground at the base of the post). You'd probably want a starting signal to the right of the trailing crossover as well so that run-rounds could take place without going into the forward section (although sometimes that sort of move would be done as a shunt into the section and that starter wouldn't be provided - either is possible).

Hope some of that is useful.
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby kbarber » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:13 pm

Okay, here's an attempt.

These are in the style of an LMR signalbox diagram. The very small signal arms are generally discs (LMR diagrams don't distinguish). The two variants for the main station are for the loop as a running line (and rather generous provision of discs to protect just about everything) and for the loop as part of the goods yard facilities - you can see at a glance how much simpler the latter is.

Lulfan: you don't say what company originally built the line and there's no real backstory. But that might be important. In the early 1960s there's likely to have been quite a bit of pre-grouping (let alone pre-nationalisation) kit around. the signalboxes could've been LMR (the ubiquitous type 15), LMS or pre-grouping. There might have been very few shunt signals - the Midland, in particular, was rather parsimonious in its earlier days; they worked on the basis that most shunting could be controlled by handsignals from the box. There are plenty of other possible variants too - the little things that convey a real sense of place (and which, more important to some of us, made mechanical signalling so varied and interesting. Of course traffic has a lot to do with the track & signalling layout too. It was pretty common to find a very old layout built for traffic quite different to what was actually being handled (which could make life pretty interesting for all concerned at times). So if there's any further information you can offer about the supposed history of your line, we might be able to build in a bit more detail.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby Adrian the Rock » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:35 pm

I think the top station has already been well covered. Personally, though, I'd offer a further variation for the main station:
lulfan3.gif
(8.51 KiB) Not downloaded yet

This is somewhere in between the two versions kbarber posted. I've tried to get rid of the clutter of discs around the points in the middle by using discs that read right through the pointwork; this means that some of the discs are fitted with stencil-type route indicators (which should be pretty easy to model as stacks of rectangular black boxes with grey-painted faces), as is the R-L main to goods home. The disc from the shed is normally off and allows locos etc to shunt freely up and down the bottom siding, unless the signalman replaces it in preparation for a move across the crossovers. The loop is now signalled as a bi-directional goods line. I have allowed for shunting moves back along the R-L main line, up to the Limit Of Shunt sign. I've also added a R-L advanced starter and two discs for setting back into the platform or loop - these would be needed if there is any need to attach locos to trains reversing in either of those lines.

Outer homes could be added in either direction, though for a typical model layout these would probably be beyond the viewable area.

You could also add calling-on arms under any or all of the home signals leading to platform lines, eg if there is a requirement to join trains in the platforms.
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby Danny252 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:44 pm

Adrian the Rock wrote:I think the top station has already been well covered. Personally, though, I'd offer a further variation for the main station:
lulfan3.gif


One quick note - should there be an LOS on the L-R main as well as the R-L? Your disc at the right hand end reads to all 5 routes possible, including bang road.
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby StevieG » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:43 am

Danny252 wrote:
Adrian the Rock wrote:I think the top station has already been well covered. Personally, though, I'd offer a further variation for the main station:
lulfan3.gif


One quick note - should there be an LOS on the L-R main as well as the R-L? Your disc at the right hand end reads to all 5 routes possible, including bang road.
If that 'bang road' route was positively needed, then I agree, unless a slightly modern TC control is envisaged, such that the bang road routeing is not released (free to use) unless TC'g in the platform shows occupied, making the train or vehicles already in the platform form the route's limiting point for shunting.

Adrian the Rock wrote: " .... discs that read right through the pointwork; this means that some of the discs are fitted with stencil-type route indicators (which should be pretty easy to model as stacks of rectangular black boxes with grey-painted faces), .... "
" .... The disc from the shed is normally off and allows locos etc to shunt freely up and down the bottom siding, unless the signalman replaces it in preparation for a move across the crossovers.
Regarding the bottom siding's yellow disc for the crossovers, and the red 'Off' disc from the shed, while I can't say that such an arrangement is unworkable or was never done, I would suggest that where that sort of use of a 'normally Off' disc is provided, there would also be an opposing 'normally Off' disc, i.e. at the crossovers in this case, and they would both probably work off the same lever - this sort of arrangement I have definitely seen: Whether you make a single red disc at the crossovers additionally work in that way for moves towards the shed, or provide a second disc and have the route indicator (if required, see below) work only with the upper disc, I can't decide.

Re using so many route indicators for shunt signals, apologies if the period and company origin of this layout has been established and I've missed it, I'd say that liberal use of route indicators for multi-route discs tended to be a slightly modern practice - from 1950s installations onwards perhaps.
Otherwise, the ancestry of the signalling might, instead of the route indicators, dictate more multiple-stacked discs (e.g. GW/WR style) such as you already show; or a single disc, without any route-indicating, reading to all or most routes (a la LNE/ER practice).

Lastly, I would think that actually, the R-L Main's Limit-Of-Shunt facility might only be provided if traffic working did or had warranted it, and that it would not exist if it was considered that any shunts between the platforms and/or the 'loop'/sidings could instead shunt out to the L-R Main.
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby lulfan » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:51 am

Hi Adrian the Rock, StevieG, Danny252, and kbarber

Many thanks to all of you for all your comments and diagrams, which must have taken ages to do - there really is an awful lot to this signalling

It's actually my first ever layout and I put the track diagram together, purely on the basis of what I thought would give some interesting shunting possibilities

The main station is supposed to be somewhere in North London but I don't know if it was built by the LMS or the Midland or indeed the LNWR. I called it Highgate 'cos that was SWMBO's local station as a child

I made it London Midland region 'cos I like their maroon signage on the platforms

The top station is actually on a viaduct and is inspired by my local East London station from childhood which is on what now's the Goblin line (Leytonstone High Road). As a kid we used to call it Midland but BR classified it as Eastern region

The time period is 1960 - 65 so there's still a few steam locos around - main local passenger services are all DMU. Everything's green, the corporate blue hasn't got there yet

We are finding it difficult though to paint the signal arms of the Ratio kits. It's really difficult to get the white and red lines straight - going to try masking tape

Oh . . . I nearly forgot - not shown in the diagrams, there's also London Underground tracks that run from a separate island platform at the main station around to a single platform on the top station

The layout is around the room, and occupies the whole of our 12 foot by 12 foot dining room. SWMBO is actually interested in the model which makes domestic life much easier

If anyone's interested, I'll post some pictures of what we've done so far and a link to our YouTube videos
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby MRFS » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:56 am

If you want hints for the LU signalling - I can help there, as UndergrounD stuff is more my forte. I can even give you a ..er.. very good suggestion as to how the original signalling was at Highgate High Level.
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby lulfan » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:33 pm

Hi MRFS

Many thanks for your very kind offer

Here is a pic showing the LUL part of our layout

lul signals.jpg


I have found Traintonics 2 aspect look a bit like LUL signals if the tops are filled round here is one i have done a bit on

102 signal.jpg


I have orderd Traintonics 102 for the homes 103 for the distants and 111 for the two feathers

CDC design do a nice free tube tunnel wall PDF

http://cdcdesign.webplus.net/7.22%20tunnel%20lining.pdf

It has some ID plates yellow and white just the thing for the signals !!
id plates.jpg
(8.55 KiB) Downloaded 740 times


I am starting to think that the Ratio semaphore kits are just to hard for us to do i guess we could do the BR lines with colour light but it will not have the feel of semaphore
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby MRFS » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:00 pm

Your LU plan will need a little bit of work on it - I'm a shade busy at the moment, but I will try and see what I can do - there will be some 4 aspect signals rather than homes/distants; LU feathers (arbour lights) are only 3 lights, not 5 (use old SR ones if you can find any).

I can see what you're trying to do. Is the joint station def. only one platform, and you are having the ability to reverse off one platform at the bottom station? If it's only one platform at the joint station, you'd not be having the arbour lights, but a red/green signal with a disc underneath.

We don't normally do modelling tips here, but have you tried using 'Scotch Tape' or 'invisible tape' to mask the signal arms?
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby Adrian the Rock » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:24 pm

StevieG wrote:...Re using so many route indicators for shunt signals, apologies if the period and company origin of this layout has been established and I've missed it, I'd say that liberal use of route indicators for multi-route discs tended to be a slightly modern practice - from 1950s installations onwards perhaps.
Otherwise, the ancestry of the signalling might, instead of the route indicators, dictate more multiple-stacked discs (e.g. GW/WR style) such as you already show; or a single disc, without any route-indicating, reading to all or most routes (a la LNE/ER practice).
Yes. What I tried to work from was lulfan's statement that the era was early-mid 60s, while at the same time trying to steer things in directions easier to model. A plausible argument in favour of my proposals could be that a lot of new housing was built in the area in the 50s and 60s so the layout had to be expanded at some point in that timeframe to cope with increased demand for both passenger and goods traffic. I did include one triple-disc but of course that too could alternatively be a single one with (or without) three stencils.

The R-L main to loop/goods shed/coal sidings signals could also very likely have been a stack of three separate goods arms rather than a single one with stencils. As the upper quadrant versions of these are more compact than WR 3' arms this form was much more common on the LMR/LNER, whereas the (G)WR were very into using mechanical 'cash register' indicators.
...Lastly, I would think that actually, the R-L Main's Limit-Of-Shunt facility might only be provided if traffic working did or had warranted it, and that it would not exist if it was considered that any shunts between the platforms and/or the 'loop'/sidings could instead shunt out to the L-R Main.
Indeed. My thinking when I included this was that this may have been a busy line so you wouldn't want to have to occupy the L-R main just to shunt a loco at that end, as such shunts would obviously be not infrequent. In the rush hour you may want to be able to run a loco round a reversing train in the R-L platform or goods loop while another train runs through on the L-R main.
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Re: Can anyone help me with placing my signals please

Unread postby StevieG » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:56 pm

Fair enough Adrian.
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