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Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

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Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Mike Sheardown » Tue May 20, 2014 12:25 pm

Hi,

Please find below, a link to my 1st attempt at designing a Track Layout Diagram for the Midland Railway’s Millers Dale station at around 1900, before the main lines through the station were quadrupled in 1906.

http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii565/MSheardown/LockingChartsandTables10_zps8f1b8658.jpg


I am pretty confident that the track-work itself is accurate (I have copied this from Bill Hudson’s well known book – Through Limestone Hills), with the exception that I have omitted a double slip on the yard side of 11, which gave access to a further head-shunt and local quarry sidings.

However, I am unsure about the signalling, as well as which lever numbers would have operated which signals and which points, and it is on these issues that I would particularly value advice as to whether my efforts are plausible?

Given that the date is set at around 1900, I am also unsure as to whether I have included too many ground signals, as I wonder whether at this period, many movements were carried out under hand signals from the signal box, and/or by the use of ground frames only. There are also several places where in my view, 2 ground signals would have been required (i.e. at 5; 12 and 14), but I have only used one, as I can find no photographic evidence that shows the presence of 2 ground signals at these places. To this end, I would also value advice on this point as well.

Finally, it should be noted that a locomotive running round the bay loop would need to access the down main line prior to setting back into the bay platform, due to there being insufficient room for it to carry out this manoeuvre without doing so. Also, I have coloured the distant signals green in order to distinguish them from stop signals. I appreciate that at this period they were red with fish tail cut outs, but unfortunately, I can’t do fish tails in the XL software I used to draw the diagram.

Many thanks for any help and advice.

Mike
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Pete2320 » Wed May 21, 2014 12:29 am

Hi Mike,
In itself your layout/signalling looks fine to me. However from comparable layouts (specifically those between Skipton and Ilkley) I would say that the only shunting signals that would have been provided would be those reading from sidings to the running lines, ie those mandatorilly required. In other words you can omit 5,7,12 and 14 which neatly answers another of your questions! In "recent" times, the remaining dollies could legitamately be yellow but c1906 (and much later) would have been red, but passed at danger except for the routes to the running lines. I also very much doubt if the subsidiary arms (16 and 17) would have been provided, the more so that I can't really see why they would be wanted anyway. Theoretically 22 should be in rear of 18 points but there have been exceptions!
Although you have omitted the connection to the quarry, if you consider the remaing sidings to still be "quarry" rather than general yard, the MR frequentley provided a miniuature arm signal to control movements from such private sidings to their yard presumably particularly if such a quarry (etc) was considered to own "motive power". A quarry might also justify a "blasting" signal if you fancied one.
Finally, I note that a number of points are marked "GF". These were most likely ordinary hand levers, and nothing to do with the signalling, with the possible exception of the bay run-round points.
Hope this is of help,

Pete
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby John Hinson » Wed May 21, 2014 11:39 am

Ta-da! Here is an un-numbered signalling drawing for c1905 - I think this is as close as you will probably get:
http://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=873

Pete is quite right about the matter of shunt signals - those provided here were the bare minimum apart from the luxury of having a disc to prevent movements coming out from the goods yard in conflict with traffic to/from the quarry.

The Down Inner Home (3 on the plan) also does not appear to have existed.

And yes, the term GF would perhaps be better as GL (ground lever). My plan shows the points for the Bay Siding controlled from the box but these could well be on a ground lever too. It is hard to be certain without a fully-numbered plan but they were certainly hand-operated after the four-tracking.

Finally, the apparent subsidiary arms below the Down Starters were actually distant signals for the next box.

Hoping this helps,

John
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Mike Sheardown » Wed May 21, 2014 4:43 pm

Pete and John,

Thank you both so much for your replies, I have found them extremely helpful!!!

I’ll re-do my diagram and re-number the levers in the light of John’s signalling diagram, and I’d value your feedback on this when I’ve done it as to whether you think it’s plausible.

I’d completely misinterpreted the distants as subsidiary arms on the bracket signal shown in this 1906 (or later) photo of Millers Dale just after the 4 tracking on the ‘Disused Stations’ website (just over half way down the page):

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/millers_dale/index.shtml

Of course I now realise that distant signals carried a horizontal black line on their reverse side during this period, and had wrongly interpreted these as ‘calling on’ arms.

The question I’m now left with though, is how would signalman and crew (and/or guard) communicate with each other regarding the agreement and carrying out of shunting manoeuvres at the station in the absence of some of the ground signals? I’m particularly interested in how the signalman would know that a particular set of points had been cleared ready for a setting back manoeuvre so he could change the points (short whistle from loco?), and, how the crew / guard would know that the signalman was ready for them to set back through a set of points (observation by crew/guard that points had been thrown? Or, green flag/ ight from signalman?). Again, any advice on this would be much appreciated.

Many thanks again for your help

Mike
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Pete2320 » Wed May 21, 2014 5:10 pm

I did wonder about No3 signal. Neither Embsay nor Bolton Abbey had its equivalent. No24 was probably not an outer home as such (particularly c1900) but simply to comply with the requirement for a train stood at a station platform to be protected by fixed signals. This really goes back to pre block working but the Midland seems to have persisted with them later than most, indeed sometimes providing them at stations that were not blockposts in which case operated from ground frames on the relevant platform.
As regards the points between the Bay and Bay Siding, I would think a ground/hand lever most likely. I think had a ground frame, implicitly released from the SB, been provided the points would have formed a crossover.
A detail of Millers Dale that does surprise me is that the Midland Railway has not persued its' apparent love of "fancy" pointwork. In a layout of comparable complexity, Embsay managed two double slips, one single slip, one diamond and three tandem points against only three single points!

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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby John Hinson » Wed May 21, 2014 6:36 pm

Mike Sheardown wrote:The question I’m now left with though, is how would signalman and crew (and/or guard) communicate with each other regarding the agreement and carrying out of shunting manoeuvres at the station in the absence of some of the ground signals? I’m particularly interested in how the signalman would know that a particular set of points had been cleared ready for a setting back manoeuvre so he could change the points (short whistle from loco?), and, how the crew / guard would know that the signalman was ready for them to set back through a set of points (observation by crew/guard that points had been thrown? Or, green flag/ ight from signalman?). Again, any advice on this would be much appreciated.

The key Rules applicable are that:
  • No train can enter a yard without the authority of the shunter (or guard, if there is no shunter).
  • That authority is given by hand-signal
Already, I think you will be beginning to realise that signals reading into sidings are not quite as important as those for coming out, after all!

  • The signalman indicates that he has set the points by holding a hand above his head, or white light by night.
  • Drivers have a set of whistle codes to indicate such things as being clear of points
It is all (in 2000-speak) team work.

John
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Wed May 21, 2014 8:30 pm

The engine whistle codes used by a company tended to be standardised as far as practicable; that makes life easier for drivers and signalmen to remember - given that they may have to work at a lot of different stations. Some codes were necessarily location specific. The codes are typically to be found in sectional appendices. In practice of course, the same people did the same job day in day out, so the movements required would generally be known anyway.
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Mike Sheardown » Wed May 21, 2014 8:46 pm

Hi John,

That’s added further clarity for me regarding the operational side, so many thanks again!!

I’m wanting to run my model railway in a manner that is as close to the way it was done on the prototype as possible, and this will also include the use of block instruments in conjunction with fully interlocked ½ size lever frames (hence the need for accurate ‘track layout diagrams’).

Such is the progress that has been made on the model railway front, that I can also add engine whistle codes and even hand signals given by the signalman as you suggest, so your advice is very valuable.

Best wishes

Mike
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Wed May 21, 2014 9:07 pm

What scale are you working in?

I have seen hand signals from the box modelled - a figure of a signalman holding a flag mounted on a pivot in the middle of the box worked by a little lever so that he appears holding his flag out of an open window. Complies with the rule that hand signals must be given outside the box!
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Mike Sheardown » Wed May 21, 2014 9:38 pm

Hi Mike,

I'm working in 7mm, in conjunction with DCC and computer control.

The scenario you describe could be replicated using servo control, and linked to appropriate events and conditions via the computer.
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Mike Sheardown » Thu May 22, 2014 9:04 pm

Here’s my second attempt at a track layout diagram for Millers Dale c1900, based on the diagram John kindly supplied above:

http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii565/MSheardown/LockingChartsandTables11_zps1c91c698.jpg

I’ve removed the various signals that John’s diagram showed weren’t actually present, and added the double slip to the local quarry. I’ve also re-numbered the diagram, in an attempt to marry it up to the signal box lever frame, and I’d be grateful for any comments regarding how plausible my attempt is.

I’ve also finally managed to work out how to draw fish tails in XL, so these have now been added to the distant signals, which has enabled me to show them in their correct red colour for the period.

Mike
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Danny252 » Thu May 22, 2014 9:32 pm

The distants for East Buxton Lime Co's Sidings should not be numbered - Millers Dale would have no direct control over these, with a slotting mechanism on the signal post itself preventing the distants being clear if the platform signals were at danger.
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Mike Sheardown » Thu May 22, 2014 11:08 pm

Hi Danny,

Yes of course – what a fool I am!!!

Diagram renumbered accordingly:

http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii565/MSheardown/LockingChartsandTables12_zpsf0d3d0dd.jpg

Thanks for your help

Mike
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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Pete2320 » Fri May 23, 2014 10:09 am

Hi Mike,
Looking at your revised drawing can I suggest the following.
Nos 9 and 11 points would be operated by the same lever
No8 points would not be operated from the signalbox, ground levers would be used instead. This was the arrangement used at Embsay for a comparable part of the layout but also see
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6552 for some recent discussion about this.
You have shown lever numbers for the distant arms under the Up Main and Bay platform starters. These would not have had levers in Millers Dale box as they were for the next box which would only have had one lever for the pair. Curiously (by current thinking) they were not repeated under 18, but again a comparable situation could be found at Embsay.

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Re: Track Layout Diagram for Millers Dale c1900

Unread postby Pete2320 » Fri May 23, 2014 10:20 am

Danny252 wrote:The distants for East Buxton Lime Co's Sidings should not be numbered - Millers Dale would have no direct control over these, with a slotting mechanism on the signal post itself preventing the distants being clear if the platform signals were at danger.

Also back slotted by 18.
Danny252s' post appeared whilst I was composing my previous reply hence some duplication.

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