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Ely North Junction

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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Richard Pike » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:45 am

I have to fit additional contacts as this instrument has only a line clear plunger lock but the plan is to go for Welwyn, trolley and one line clear one pull. I have a trolley instrument and token. I'd prefer to find an instrument with all the right contacts but that'll have to wait until the money has built up into a suitable pile.
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Richard Pike » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:42 am

I thought i had everything straight in my mind regarding the operation of the GE blocks but something came to light over the weekend that has cast some doubts.. If we say a white plunge buts the block to line clear, a red plunge moves the needles to train on line and a black plunge is neutral. I thought 'is line clear' would be answered on the white plunger and train on line answered on the red, however i've been told in at least one area 'is line clear' was answered by one white plunge and repetition of the is line clear code on the black plunger. Any thoughts?
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:41 am

Richard Pike wrote:I thought i had everything straight in my mind regarding the operation of the GE blocks but something came to light over the weekend that has cast some doubts.. If we say a white plunge buts the block to line clear, a red plunge moves the needles to train on line and a black plunge is neutral. I thought 'is line clear' would be answered on the white plunger and train on line answered on the red, however i've been told in at least one area 'is line clear' was answered by one white plunge and repetition of the is line clear code on the black plunger. Any thoughts?

Richard,

I think that your interpretation is correct, I've never heard of the other method of working.
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Pete2320 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:36 pm

I can only see red and white plungers! Where is the black one?

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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Richard Pike » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:19 pm

Pete2320 wrote:I can only see red and white plungers! Where is the black one?

Pete

The black plunger is on the block shelf as in John's excellent picture here..

http://signalbox.org/gallery/e/reedhamjcn.php

Here are the red white and black plungers in blue and white.,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/24579319330/

The black block shelf plunger is in the dashed box under BXN.

Edit to add..

both plungers on the instrument operate the same contacts inside. The only thing they do independently is operate the pole changing contacts. The block shelf plunger is in parallel with the instrument plunger but it's operation causes no pole change.
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Richard Pike » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:20 am

The bell code machine has progressed quite a way in the last few days but decision time approaches. Do i build in some additional controls to the simulator to give it some 'intelligence'? When a train passes 'Train entering section' is sent. When the far end replies the non pegger needle moves to 'Train on Line'. It would be possible after this to send another 'Is line clear' code. A real signalman and his correctly filled in train register book would immediately question this as he knows there is already a train in section. His flaps on his instrument should also act as a reminder too. I can build in a circuit to the simulator that can ignore any additional 'is line clear' requests or perhaps convert them into something to alert the sender that he is trying to put two in a bed so to speak. What do others think?
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:35 pm

Nowadays we tend to think you should only offer against a normal block, but obviously that didn't apply with 2-position instruments. I think the exchange of Train out of Section therefore becomes much more safety-critical when you are using 2-position block than it is with 3-position.

The point is that the simulator should not make a habit of offering a train against TOL, as a real signalman would not do so. It is an inherent part of the safety of AB not only that the box in advance must refuse two in section, but that the box in rear is not allowed to try! It takes two signalman in the wrong to cause an accident this way. If you do decide to offer a second train, you are simulating a signalman who is making a mistake; whilst this would happen from time to time through human error of course, so perhaps it should be on an infrequent basis such as only once in 1000 times. Doing this deliberately might be useful if you were using the simulator as a training tool though.

So I don't think your idea is sound, but perhaps the simulator could send 1-5-5 when there is a second train, if the person working the box has neglected to send train out of section within a reasonable time? I don't suppose there are enough surviving records, but I suspect that code might have been used more often in the days when 2-position block was widespread.

Similarly for the opposite line you could send 6-2 if simulator does not detect a train within a reasonable period of its having acknowledged TES. Another piece of intelligence you could add would be to send 6 bells whenever a train which (although it would have been accepted) arrives from a box which has omitted to send TES.
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby John Webb » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:20 pm

Richard - at St Albans South we have a buzzer to give the usual short buzz produced by a train passing our IBS signals on the more complex demonstrations/simulations. This buzzer is also operated by the simulator if something has been done incorrectly. For example in the absence of electric locks on our starter signals, if a starter is pulled off without LC being obtained, the buzzer gives a series of 'raspberries' to say you've done something wrong, and only stops when you have replaced the lever. Likewise for other errors! (On our simple demo this feature is disabled to allow greater flexibility in operating levers for demonstration purposes.)
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Richard Pike » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:27 pm

A short video of the block attached to the simulator..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/27759117166/
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Richard Pike » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:52 pm

John Webb wrote:Richard - at St Albans South we have a buzzer to give the usual short buzz produced by a train passing our IBS signals on the more complex demonstrations/simulations. This buzzer is also operated by the simulator if something has been done incorrectly. For example in the absence of electric locks on our starter signals, if a starter is pulled off without LC being obtained, the buzzer gives a series of 'raspberries' to say you've done something wrong, and only stops when you have replaced the lever. Likewise for other errors! (On our simple demo this feature is disabled to allow greater flexibility in operating levers for demonstration purposes.)


My favourite idea at the moment is to get the simulator to answer any spurious request for an additional 'is line clear' with 1-2. (come to the phone i want a word but without everyone on the circuit knowing).
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Richard Pike » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:59 am

I've not got any train register books from Soham or Chippenham Junction so i don't know how thing's were done regarding King's Siding. I believe a train could be shut in. Once it was in and the ground frame normalised Chippenham would send 'train out of section' but what would he need to do to get the train out again? Block back outside home signal springs to mind but was that the case?
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby John Hinson » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:07 am

Richard Pike wrote:I've not got any train register books from Soham or Chippenham Junction so i don't know how thing's were done regarding King's Siding. I believe a train could be shut in. Once it was in and the ground frame normalised Chippenham would send 'train out of section' but what would he need to do to get the train out again? Block back outside home signal springs to mind but was that the case?

Typical arrangements to let one out would be:
  • If the ground frame is released by the box in rear (the most common) the train is offered on by the box in rear and the release not given until the train is accepted, or
  • if the ground frame is released by the box in advance (a fairly rare arrangement) "Blocking Back Outside" would be used.
Likewise, if the frame is controlled by the box in rear I would have thought it more likely for a train when shut inside to be cancelled using 3-5.

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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Richard Pike » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:44 am

King's Siding was always released by Chippenham Junction, the box in advance. Further problems to overcome are coming to light. If i send 2-2-3 the books says it is to be accepted under regulation 5. How do you do that with a GE one wire?

Call attention, acknowledged, is line clear 2-2-3 acknowledged 3-5-5 back acknowledge 3-5-5 and a final reply of 1 on white plunger?
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:38 pm

Under the 1909 GER block regulations (Double line block with 2 indications), 2-2-3 was not used, the equivalent then being 1-2-2, ILC for Ballast Train requiring to stop in section, and the table of bell codes refers you to Clause 8 rather than 3 & 4, much the same as the 1960 book.

"8. Ballast Train requiring to stop in Section. When a Ballast train which has been signalled as a Through Ballast Train requires to stop in the section for Permanent-way purposes, and comes to a stand at a signal box to enable the Guard to inform the Signalman that his train is going to stop on the Main Line (see rule 215 of the Book of Rules & Regulations), the Signalman must give the Cancelling signal to the signal box in advance and when this signal has been acknowledged, he must block-signal the train as Ballast Train requiring to stop in section, and the signalman in advance must if the line is clear to the Home SIgnal, give permission for the train to approach his box in accordance with Clause 5."

Note that there is no mention of trains requiring to stop in section for other reasons (although this was not necessarily true of equivalent rules on other lines at the time eg NER). Also, Regulation 5 provided that the 3-5-5 code must not be used in foggy weather and during falling snow. I think likely that in GE days the train would be offered under 3 bells, ILC for Ordinary Goods,Empty Truck, or Coal Train stopping at intermediate stations.

When the train was inside clear, I suspect Cancelling would have been sent if the GF was released from the box in rear. However 2-1 seems appropriate if released by the box in advance because Regulation 10 includes ".."In cases where a train has to be shunted and does not pass the signal box before being shunted clear of the Main Line,the Signalman must before giving the Train out of Section signal ascertain from the Guard or Shunter that the whole of the train has arrived with tail lamp attached and the Guard or Shunter will be held responsible for giving this information to the signalman..."

By LNER days, the 1-2-2 code had changed to 2-2-3, and Reg 8 did include a clause "A goods train calling at an intermediate siding in section and an Officers' Special requiring to stop in section must be dealt with in a similar manner", and the Reg 5 restriction as to weather had been removed.
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Re: Ely North Junction

Unread postby Richard Pike » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:37 pm

It seems i've told an untruth. King's siding was released by Annett's key kept in Soham box from 1973 (when the siding opened) and does not appear to have shut in ability. That makes thing's easier in some respects. It went electric release from Chippenham Junction in 1976.
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