"Up to Derby" - myth?

[edwin_m]

It is frequently suggested, including on Wikipedia [citation needed] that the the Up direction on the Midland was to its headquarters at Derby.

From looking at diagrams on this site, I strongly doubt this. I've checked several between Derby and St Pancras and after working out the geography it is clear that Up is towards St Pancras. The oldest such plan is Bedford South dated 1903, so pre-dating the wholesale re-mileposting the Midland is thought to have done in 1907 (http://midlandrailway.org.uk/occasional ... ile-posts/) which might also have been a logical time to reverse Up and Down. But can anyone definitely confirm or contradict that the Midland was "up to St Pancras" or give a date when Up was reversed?

[steve thompson]

The Midland's Bristol to Derby line was UP to Derby.

[StevieG]

Wouldn't there have been a pre-St.Pancras time when, if the then MR's main line direction south from Derby, Leicester etc. was not Down, it would then presumably have been Up to Hitchin (for King's Cross via the GNR) ?
Would that possibly less important direction have lent credence to a theory that north to Derby may well instead have been Up ?

[John Hinson]

Wouldn't there have been a pre-St.Pancras time when, if the then MR's main line direction south from Derby, Leicester etc. was not Down, it would then presumably have been Up to Hitchin (for King's Cross via the GNR) ?
Would that possibly less important direction have lent credence to a theory that north to Derby may well instead have been Up ?

Yes, definitely "Up" to London via Hirchin and the GN.

Steve T has hit the nail on the head. That's the route that gets people confused, especially on the bit where they run alongside the GW near Gloucester.

J

[RDNA]

This discussion has started me wondering just when the "Up" / "Down" conventions were first used?

Am I right in a vague recollection that I once saw a reference to "North Line" (presumably paired with a "South Line") on the Liverpool and Manchester Railway?

Does anyone know of a reference to line direction on the Midland Counties Railway when it first opened from Derby / Nottingham to Rugby?

All comments will be read with interest.

Dave

[RDNA]

A little 'Googling' has partly answered my last question!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_C ... n_1840.jpg

[edwin_m]

Thanks for these replies.

Thanks for the confirmation John that it was Up towards London even before the Midland reached St Pancras. I don't suppose you have any documentary evidence of this? There's a character on another forum saying that an Wikipedia entry with no citation carries as much weight as several of your track layouts!

I agree it is the Midland's Bristol line that causes the confusion, and I imagine it was done that way either because for a time London trains left Derby going northwards, or to keep directions consistent at the most important stations, with the LNWR at Birmingham and the GWR at Bristol. This raises the subsidiary questions of whether Up was ever northwards in Derby station itself, and which direction was Up (if it was used at all) when the Midland's London trains used part of this line to reach the London and Birmingham at Hampton in Arden (and I imagine nobody had thought about extending it to Birmingham and Bristol!). Perhaps was no reason, and the Midland's directors just tossed a coin?

The timetable gives some general support to the idea that Up was towards London but it can't be definitive. The trains shown will have to reverse in Nottingham so must change between Up and Down at least once on their journeys, and it might also be that the timetable adopted the general convention in speed of the time of "up to London" regardless of how the company assigned its directions on specific parts of the network.

[John Hinson]

Thanks for the confirmation John that it was Up towards London even before the Midland reached St Pancras. I don't suppose you have any documentary evidence of this? There's a character on another forum saying that an Wikipedia entry with no citation carries as much weight as several of your track layouts!

Not immediately to hand, no. I'm not Wikipedia, and if people don't wish to take my drawings at face value that's their choice. Nobody is perfect, and there are probably as many errors on ancient hallowed documents as there are on my drawings.

Maybe John Gough can help, he has been through everything Midland at York with a fine toothcomb.

John

[Mike Stone]

Actually there is no way of telling from that table if trains ran via Nottingham - most up trains leave Derby and Nottingham at the same time.
Most early timetables and Bradshaw seem to me to rarely given any clear indication of what is and is not a connection.
.

I would have thought Mr Gough's unparallelled tome would have recorded any change?

[JG Morgan]

I have had a look at Gough ...
I've read the Foreword, Introduction and Conventions text at the front and have checked the detailed descriptions of the Hitchin to Bedford line and the Derby / Nottingham / Leicester triangle, and can find nothing about a change of direction in 1907 or that it was ever "up to Derby" throughout the Midland Railway.
I can see no mention of a "wholesale re-mileposting" in 1907.

It is, of course, up to Derby on the Bristol line as others have stated earlier; that matches the milepost direction (zero at London Road junction Derby). As far as the MR was concerned, Bristol - Birmingham - Derby is the route to London from the south-west (therefore "Up" in the normal railway sense). The MR might have "cut off the corner" from Stenson to Trent, but would not have wanted to send London traffic via the rival GWR or LNWR.

Trains to London would have left Derby south-westwards (to Hampton in Arden) from August 1839.
From June 1840 a route to London became available leaving Derby station at the north end, turning east to Chaddesden, Sawley Jct, Leicester and Rugby. So trains to London could have left from either end of the station. The route south then east from Derby station (the Litchurch & Spondon curve, the main line as we know it now) did not open until June 1867. Thereafter trains to London St Pancras could leave at either end of Derby station until closure to passenger trains of the old route via Chaddesden in October 1968.

[Stuart Johnson]

I have had a look at Gough ...

I can see no mention of a "wholesale re-mileposting" in 1907.

That's odd, because the reference in the OP of this thread is to an article by John Gough in which he describes such a re-mileposting in some detail.

[Mike Stone]

But in the article he does say he was unable to find any minutes authorising it. He also refers to distances being measured from St. Pancras from 1873.

[John Prytherch]

This message may be out of date as I have not used Derby Midland Station for about two years. But I think that on Derby Panel signals 441 to 446, starting southwards from the station, the indication "S" for Up Main really means "Spondon Branch" as I think that is the engineer's line reference for the remaining route to Spondon. The indication "W" means "Down Main (West)". I have always thought of it as meaning "West of England". I will miss these indications (which I think are still theatre type) when Derby is resignalled later this year.

I don't know what indications the new ROC signals will give, but I expect it will be "M" for Spondon and "B" (which may mean "Branch" but it would be nice to think of as "Bristol") for the Birmingham route. I am of course speculating here - sorry!

John Prytherch.

[steve thompson]

Or it could be B for Burton.

[Mike Stone]

Tamworth Fast and Slow according to the diagram on the railengineer website - not clear if any are reversible to LNW Jct requiring them to show U OR D.
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