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Greenwood signal box

British signalling of the past (UK, excepting Northern Ireland)

Greenwood signal box

Unread postby Distant signal » Mon Mar 2, 2009 9:33 am

I've been looking at the Cuneo painting On Early Shift,which shows Greenwood signal box in operation during 1948.

Does anyone know which levers relate to which signal etc,or if there is a track diagram for Greenwood anywhere on the net?

Cuneo's notes give limited information such as:

Lever 18: Down main distant
17:Down goods home
16:Lock bar for 15 points
15:Down goods to down main points
14:Spare
13:Down main home
12:Down main semi auto starter(colour light)
6:Lock bar for points 5
5:Points up main to up slow

Levers 8-10 control semaphore home signals(no notes which)
Lever 7 appears to be a short handled distant lever


Thanks.
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Unread postby Richard Pike » Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:19 pm

This wont help at all but it's the best i can do..
https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/6817872304/
Last edited by Richard Pike on Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Distant signal » Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:51 pm

Thanks Richard.

I presume this diagram is from the 1950s(not long before closure)as a number of the spare levers indicated in your picture were in use during 1948,when Cuneo painted his picture. Some,such as 12,still relate to signals featured in Cuneo's painting though.
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Re: Greenwood signal box

Unread postby John Hinson » Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:54 pm

Distant signal wrote:Does anyone know which levers relate to which signal etc,or if there is a track diagram for Greenwood anywhere on the net?

Here is one for 1932 . . .
http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=335

Those notes of lever functions are interesting. I have always been of the opinion that an element of artistic licence applies in that picture because 18 was the Down Goods Distant ten years previously, as on my drawing. However, I have been told by others that 18 definitely was the Down Main Distant at that date.

However, Richard's interesting photograph is not as unhelpful as he suggests. If this is a late plan (it looks heavily rationalised, so is presumably around 1955 quadrupling time) the Down Main Distant is clearly still 14. It seems exceedingly unlikely it ever changed, so methinks there is a yellow herring swimming about. :o)

Best wishes,

John
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Unread postby Distant signal » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:06 pm

Thanks John.

That could make sense,as in Cuneo's painting there are 2 distant signal repeaters on the block shelf(near lever 18)yet only 1 distant lever(18)is shown in the painting,with 14 being painted as white.
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Unread postby Richard Pike » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:32 pm

The down slow appears to be a through, non signalled, line in my diagram. Was this just for materials delivery? It seems odd to truncate the slow at the box in rear when the kit was already in place for the bottleneck. I wonder if by this stage this line went through to Potters Bar?
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Unread postby John Hinson » Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:56 pm

Richard Pike wrote:The down slow appears to be a through, non signalled, line in my diagram. Was this just for materials delivery? It seems odd to truncate the slow at the box in rear when the kit was already in place for the bottleneck. I wonder if by this stage this line went through to Potters Bar?


Yes, first stage of the widening, I would reckon.

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Photo by John Hinson, at a date which I refuse to disclose for fear of incriminating myself. But it is after 1955 of course!

As you will see above a new twin-bore tunnel was built on the west side to house the Down Slow and Down Fast and I would assume the former Down Goods has been diverted to run though it and is thus no longer controlled by Greenwood.

I would guess the DMU above is almost running through the ghost of Greenwood box.

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Unread postby ferroequine » Mon Mar 2, 2009 8:03 pm

As a youngster (of course) I travelled past the site of the widening works on a couple of occasions and I can recall that there was a very rickety looking standard gauge line running into the south end of one of the new tunnels on at least one occasion when we passed as well as the narrow gauge lines - but I can't tell you which tunnel it was.
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Unread postby StevieG » Wed Mar 4, 2009 12:56 am

Richard's diagram photo is of a period during the quadrupling stageworks.
I cannot say what the Down Goods did/led to / how it was 'worked', but have seen a photo(s) somewhere showing the Up Main slewed as continuing as the Up Slow (which would eventually end up as a 'straight run' permanent feature forming the US throughout from Potters Bar) and the temporary UM/S to Up Fast right-hand turnout connection with R-H modern bracket splitting signal somewhere not too far in advance of the box.

Re the DM distant, the photo seems perplexing in itself to me.
Barnet North's C/L starter is shown, red, acting as Greenwood distant, and with "14" beside it, and 14 is not in the spares list, but the table of controls refers to the "DOWN MAIN AUTO DISTANT G ASPECT" (note 'Auto', usually meaning not having its own lever, which would tally with Cuneo painting it as white), as controlled only by "12 AT YELLOW OR GREEN & 13 ARM OFF"; and the DM Block includes being controlled by DM Auto Distant 'ON'.
In fact, if all of the table is studied, there are plenty of references to track circuits with single letter identities, none of which are in the diagram's track details, so it seems like the table remained, unamended, 'as was', while the main diagram details had been altered for the ongoing works' layout, suggesting that perhaps the DM Dist. had previously become an 'Auto', and 14 had been spare, but was somehow now back in use.

Cuneo notes / 'others say', or not, - I thought that, as for those which I saw, in each case where the '2nd line' ended, leading into 2-track railway, the distant for the '2nd line' (usually a "Goods") was always still a workable one, so it seems a very strange and unlikely prospect for the DG distant lever 18 to have been 'pinched' to work the DM distant.

John's DMU photo : Nearly right; I think the box was a bit nearer the tunnel, just in front of where there appears to be some (slightly green?) raised ground between the tunnel bores; the old DM starter 12 at the entrance to Hadley S. Tunnel wasn't far in advance of the box.
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Unread postby Keith » Wed Mar 4, 2009 9:35 pm

StevieG wrote:John's DMU photo : Nearly right; I think the box was a bit nearer the tunnel, just in front of where there appears to be some (slightly green?) raised ground between the tunnel bores; the old DM starter 12 at the entrance to Hadley S. Tunnel wasn't far in advance of the box.

I'm no expert on the area, but old OS maps show the box 225 metres (say 250 yards) from the tunnel mouth. Unfortunately, there are far too many trees in today's aerial views to make out any landmarks that match the DI's photo, which would allow a decent estimate of the dmu's position.
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Unread postby StevieG » Wed Mar 4, 2009 10:00 pm

Keith wrote:
StevieG wrote:John's DMU photo : Nearly right; I think the box was a bit nearer the tunnel, just in front of where there appears to be some (slightly green?) raised ground between the tunnel bores; the old DM starter 12 at the entrance to Hadley S. Tunnel wasn't far in advance of the box.

I'm no expert on the area, but old OS maps show the box 225 metres (say 250 yards) from the tunnel mouth. Unfortunately, there are far too many trees in today's aerial views to make out any landmarks that match the DI's photo, which would allow a decent estimate of the dmu's position.
The spot where the photo was taken from was right in a corner of one of the large publicly-accessible areas of Hadley Woods. It was a favourite of mine for watching the trains from, and I knew the pictured scene very well.
I was only about eight when Greenwood box went though, but I reckon it was about half-way between the photographer and the right-hand tunnel bore.
BZOH

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Unread postby John Hinson » Thu Mar 5, 2009 5:11 am

I'm not sure why we are splitting hairs - I said:
I would guess the DMU above is almost running through the ghost of Greenwood box.

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Unread postby LNERGE » Thu Mar 5, 2009 10:16 am

I have seen a DVD recently where the temporary bracket is in place and and the tunnels can be seen looking almost complete. I haven't been able to see the box though. Was Greenwood abolished and replaced by a ground frame or similar briefly?
Last edited by LNERGE on Thu Mar 5, 2009 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby StevieG » Thu Mar 5, 2009 12:25 pm

signalman wrote:I'm not sure why we are splitting hairs - I said:
I would guess the DMU above is almost running through the ghost of Greenwood box.

John
Now you mention it, neither do I. You did say almost.
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Unread postby Keith » Thu Mar 5, 2009 8:18 pm

If it hadn't been for the hair-splitting, I wouldn't have had the excuse to study the old maps for another bit of railway. 8)
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