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Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

British signalling of the past (UK, excepting Northern Ireland)

Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby Paul_G » Sun Apr 2, 2017 7:38 pm

Hi folks

Doing some work on a late 50's early sixties branch location.
From the refs I have been able to gather it definately has ex MR LQ signals but there appears to be 2 poss 3 that are UQ BR/LMS
Would it be normal or acceptable to have a mixture of upper and lower at the same location / section of line ?

Second query is
A midland box but was taken over by the ER just after nationalisation, would the framing be painted green ?
a pic I have shows round end LMS nameboard this looks to be darker than the framing (BW pic) would this be green also?

Sorry I don't think I can reproduce pic as is copywrited

Regards

Paul G
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Mon Apr 3, 2017 2:08 pm

There was no stigma then of mixing upper and lower quadrant signals, indeed I worked Kensington North Main which on the Down Main had a lower quadrant distant, and Upper quadrant home, a three aspect colour light starter followed by a four aspect IB.

If one travelled back from the IB on the Down Main (which was signalled) then you got a position light ground signal followed by a Great Western lower quadrant backing signal with a GW ground disc at the foot of the post, the next signal was an LMR lower quadrant double disc followed by another lower quadrant double disc this time of GW style again.
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby John Hinson » Mon Apr 3, 2017 2:34 pm

Ha ha, if you had a stigma about mixing lower and upper quadrant signals you would never renew a single one unless you could change every one in the country simultaneously!

Paul - are you in a position to tell us the name of the box concerned. I am willing to wade through what I have to see if I have anything on the box concerned. I'm not to hot on colour schemes off my head but if I (or somebody) turns out to have a colour picture to check that would give you a firm answer.

Not too many received round-ended nameboards, either. The early BR colours for these was black lettering on white but I don't think real life was quite that cut and dried.

John
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby Paul_G » Mon Apr 3, 2017 10:52 pm

Hi John

The box in question is Southwell, but also looking for info on Rolleston West and Rolleston Junction.
Have a good pic of Southwell from LMS Journal Preview.
LMS built MR box 2+2 windows and frame in the rear no finials , with matchboard lower half.
A very nice pic of Upton Crossing in Alan Bullimore's Collection
Rolleston West very hard to find anything on' but built at same time as Southwell recieved its new box 1926 ish
Rolleston Junction I have a couple of distant shots Early MR but little else known at this time.

Apparently there are articles in LMS Journal 15 and 17 relating to this section but are out of print

I have one color pic of Southwell Station and the woodwork is Green

A glimse of Rolleston West appears in this Vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L09vbVembc

Thanks for your help again + Graham

Looks like mixed signals is the order of the day :-)

Paul
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby John Hinson » Tue Apr 4, 2017 12:16 am

Ah, I have to admit that wasn't the part of Eastern Region property I was thinking of and I don't have much in the way of photographs of that patch but if Southwell had received a coat of paint courtesy the ER it is quite likely the nameboard was repainted as white lettering on ER dark blue background. I don't know when the branch passed to the ER But given that Southwell box closed in 1955 I think it quite unlikely that it did. In which case the board would likely have been LMS/LMR maroon or (less likely, I suspect) black.

Best regards,

John
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby Paul_G » Tue Apr 4, 2017 9:14 am

Hi John
From the info I have, the line transferred to ER in 1949 and the boxes at Southwell, Upton Crossing, Rolleston West lasted until 66-67.
Southwell station closed to passengers in May 59, goods 1964/5 ?
The box at Southwell was still manned in 1964, but may have been mothballed soon after, with the removal of goods trains.
(Was told off by Signalman as a nine year old, for playing in the goods yard :-)
My image shows white lettering, but the nameboard backround is not dark enough for black, yet darker than the (green?) framing,
I am getting the feeling it may have been left in LMS maroon with white lettering.

Cheers

Paul G
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby John Hinson » Tue Apr 4, 2017 5:36 pm

That sounds a likely (and typical) arrangement of colours, Paul.

Apologies on the Southwell closure date - I'm not sure what I was looking at but looking again I see the date for closure of the box was 2/10/66.

Best regards,

John
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby dwwilson » Wed Apr 5, 2017 9:12 am

There was a home and distant mounted on the same post at Nisbet on the Jedburgh branch. The home was a standard ex NBR lower quadrant but the distant was an upper quadrant mounted about 20 feet lower. It may have been a fixed distant when it was photographed in 1964. By that time the branch had lost its passenger service.
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby Pete2320 » Wed Apr 5, 2017 4:55 pm

The Eastern Region certainly was in the habit of painting signalboxes in green and cream, including ex Midland boxes fairly commonly in the East Midlands which would fit with Southwell. But beware, the LMS also used green and cream at various rural locations and I believe this to have been more common than generally thought. However the shades were quite different, the LMS ones being paler. The ER colours were very similar to those used on the Southern Region!
Incidentally, the normal colour for LMS signal boxes and station buildings was a form of brown and cream. The Station Colours website does claim that maroon/crimson and cream was used as well but I have my reservations about that.
If North Eastern Region practice is any guide, signalboxes seem to have been repainted much more quickly than the stations. Thus the Skipton to Ilkley line stations remained LMS green and cream until closure whereas the signal boxes were blue and white.
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby vic south » Fri Apr 7, 2017 7:14 pm

I've been told in the past by blokes who worked on the LMS that boxes were a reddish dark brown and never maroon (crimson lake). I suspect the colour may have been a development of the MR's ventian red. The main colour of cream was probably a a similar derivative of their lemon chrome. It's all conjecture on my part but with some credence from eye witness reports - although we all know how fickle memory is.

Incidentally Midland men had an interesting way of remembering the colour of SLW forms...

Drivers white - the colour of his headlamp,
Guard green - the colour of his flag
Signalman yellow - the colour of his box!

Paul G,

Photo's of Rolleston Jct are very few and far between but if you've seen the Midland ones you may have noticed the well tended area behind the box. It was an orchard, I'm suspect established by the whole station staff. The remains are still there! When I was PWSM at Nottingham I had some lovely apples out of there and with the Victoria plums made tons of jam!

All the best,

Andrew
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby scarpa » Sat Apr 8, 2017 7:57 pm

The LT&S [Fenchurch St. to Shoeburyness ] was managed by the LMS and there was a mixture of LMS signals upper and lower quadrants. With the Eastern region taking over prior to electrification BR eastern region signals were introduced during renewals or renewals due to electrification sighting problem an example Basildon East Home signal lower quadrant fitted twenty feet from rail level was reduced to twelve feet changed to upper quadrant same post.
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Re: Mixed UQ and LQ ? SB Colours?

Unread postby Paul_G » Sun Apr 9, 2017 2:06 pm

Thanks for all the input guys, seems pretty cut and dried on the UQ/LQ situation,
My initial thinking that both types within a single station limits on the same track, would be confusing and therefore unlikely has been dispelled.

Thanks again hope to have some pics soon

Paul
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