Cemetery signalbox nameboard (and others)

[scarpa]

During a film of steam locos on the King s Cross line there were excellent shots of mechanical signalling and associate signalboxes. Cemetery signalbox was shown and I remember internal railway publications referring the box as Cemetery Junction and I was sure in latter years the box had a name board with junction on it.Can anyone comfirm this?

[John Hinson]

Not to my knowledge. I'm pretty sure this came off the box after closure:

Photo: John Hinson 19/4/17.

There were also some boxes near Hartlepool at Cemetery Junctions, although in true NER manner the "junction" was not used in the box name so they were "Cemetery North" etc. But maybe the word junction was used in associated publications concerning those boxes.

John

[GeoffSmith]

During a film of steam locos on the King s Cross line there were excellent shots of mechanical signalling and associate signalboxes. Cemetery signalbox was shown and I remember internal railway publications referring the box as Cemetery Junction and I was sure in latter years the box had a name board with junction on it.Can anyone comfirm this?

London Railway Record has two long articles, in issues 21/254-260 and 59/182-193.
The first has nothing on signalling, but the second, by Peter Kay, has extensive coverage.
No mention of "Junction".

[Mackay]

The LNER timber nameboards at the Cemetery junctions at Hartlepool just had "West" "North" etc without the word "Junction". A quick check of the later NER WTT appendixes shows that they used the same naming. Just to be awkward, the 1892 appendix has "Cemetery Junction (South)" etc. No idea whether this appeared on the nameboards in use at that time (they would be the blue-and-white ones). Nor have I ever seen a photo showing the brown-and-cream ones which replaced them in the early 1900s, and which were in turn replaced by the LNER ones on the end walls in GNR style.
Neil

[StevieG]

I knew the London area Cemetery Box fairly well, and have never seen or heard of it referred to with 'Junction' included, nor IIRC, did the relevant block shelf instrumentation nameplates in the adjacent boxes mention 'Junction'; certainly the box's diagram merely stated "CEMETERY".

The GNR provided a fairly short-lived (c1870s/'80s) funeral train service from London to the Great Northern London Cemetery near New Southgate, running from the special station on the Up side embankment at Belle Isle, north of Gasworks Tunnel (Kings Cross), to a cemetery station near the GNLC, whose platform was very near Cemetery Box's site, but I believe that that was served by a separate line off, and parallel with, the main line, northwards from New Southgate, so no 'junction' for that at Cemetery.

I recall that that the nameboards on each side of the box were not an exact match, with that featured in the photo from John almost certainly being from the south end of this box, and other published photographic evidence showing the north end board with an about 1-foot blank space after "CEMETERY", where it once bore the second word "UP" from the GNR days when the box there only signalled the Up lines and there was a separate Cemetery Down box nearby.

[PinzaC55]

Not specifically about this nameboard as it looks genuine but I attended the railwayana auction at Buxton in Norfolk about 20 years ago and they were selling off a lot of gear from a miniature railway (Knebworth I think). There were a number of signalbox nameboards which were imitations based on boxes in the Kings Cross area and since they had been in the outdoors for many years they had weathered to a fairly convincing appearance. I have a photo squirrelled away somewhere and I think the proportions of the letters were wrong on the fakes.

[John Hinson]

Most of the stuff from Knebworth originated at Jack Waldock's Molewood Railway Museum and (I think) subsequently went to a museum in Norfolk which later closed - which fits with the location of the auction you describe. The majority were indeed ex-GN but I can assure you they were most definitely genuine. Jack had no reason to fake things when he had an almost unlimited source of original material. I think what you are discussing may be mixed up with something else.

My Cemetery nameboard did not come from Jack's collection but is definitely genuine. A few items that were mine that were displayed at Great Molewood never came back to me and I presume were auctioned off too at vast profit to somebody.

John


Great Molewood Railway Museum, photo N L Cadge/John Hinson collection 29/5/76.

[StevieG]

Much appreciate you sharing that shot of Norman's John. A great reminder of what transpired to be my single visit of several intended, at Jack's invitation. [ Did Norman take any more there ? ]

[ I also recall that inside, he had some sort of model railway ('O' Gauge probably), a little dilapidated I think, with two or more properly interlocked lever frames; one of which IIRC, was a passing place on a single line, with complicated means of switching out replicated; somewhat like Cole Green Box's facilities.

The Knebworth railway's official name was the Knebworth And Wintergreen railway, with two tiny block posts; one 'Knebworth' (a box or ground frame structure of rather old-style - IIRC, top window panes were arc-topped, - whose origin location now escapes me), and 'Nup End', (which looked remarkably like the one-time 5-lever Harringay Up Goods No.2 line / Up Yard covered GF).

Over the years two people have told me independently that the Norfolk location which the Knebworth collection went to was called Bygones Village, Fleggburgh.]

( Ah, little to do with thread subject : Apologies.)

[John Hinson]

Much appreciate you sharing that shot of Norman's John. A great reminder of what transpired to be my single visit of several intended, at Jack's invitation. [ Did Norman take any more there ? ]

Yes, he took a number of pictures over several visits, including two that appeared in "Rail News" at the time.

John

[StevieG]

Much appreciate you sharing that shot of Norman's John. A great reminder of what transpired to be my single visit of several intended, at Jack's invitation. [ Did Norman take any more there ? ]

Yes, he took a number of pictures over several visits, including two that appeared in "Rail News" at the time.

John

Ah, good.
Somewhere, I have several shots on negative film of the collection etc. when it was at Knebworth (not box interiors though).

[PinzaC55]

Here are a couple of shots of the boxboards. I have a few other shots of ground signals and suchlike if there is no objection to me posting them.


Boxboards Buxton Auction par PinzaC55, on ipernity


Boxboards Buxton Auction 2 par PinzaC55, on ipernity

[John Hinson]

No problem. Which are the perceived fakes?

John

[PinzaC55]

Obviously it is hard to remember at 20+ years distance but I remember a discussion about "Knebworth House" and "Bounds Green Box". The GNR is outside my area of knowledge but certainly on the NER / LNER(NE) it was very rare for a box to have the "box" suffix. I think someone said there was no such box as Knebworth House. There was also a discussion about the backs of the boards and whether they looked "right". I remember for instance at about the same time there was a "DRIGG" boxboard at the Sheffield Railwayana Auction and the popular view was that it was made from a scaffolding board - I later checked an old scaffolding board and found it was the right dimensions for an LNER standard boxboard.

[StevieG]

" Obviously it is hard to remember at 20+ years distance but I remember a discussion about "Knebworth House" and "Bounds Green Box". The GNR is outside my area of knowledge but certainly on the NER / LNER(NE) it was very rare for a box to have the "box" suffix. I think someone said there was no such box as Knebworth House. .... "

"xxxx xxxx BOX" could perhaps be regarded as unusual (possibly 'rare') in the area of the ER in the NER era / LNER (Southern), PinzaC55, but certainly not unheard of : For example, both New Barnet boxes bore that suffix in the 1960s, and I have a strong feeling that Bounds Green did also, but can't easily find my slide of it to confirm that.


As regards a 'Knebworth House' nameboard, referring back to my recent post about Jack Waldock and his collection being involved with / at the now extinct (possibly these last 30 years) narrow-gauge Knebworth & Wintergreen Railway, - -

" .... The Knebworth railway's official name was the Knebworth And Wintergreen railway, with two tiny block posts; one 'Knebworth' (a box or ground frame structure of rather old-style - IIRC, top window panes were arc-topped, - whose origin location now escapes me), and 'Nup End', (which looked remarkably like the one-time 5-lever Harringay Up Goods No.2 line / Up Yard covered GF).

Over the years two people have told me independently that the Norfolk location which the Knebworth collection went to was called Bygones Village, Fleggburgh.]

( Ah, little to do with thread subject : Apologies.) "

- - On reflection, I don't recall the little station box having a nameboard, but 'Knebworth House' might well have been made for it (this station, the only one on the line IIRC, was about 2 minutes' walk from the big house); and the line's other, even smaller, box, 'Nup End', certainly had a realistic-looking (from passing trains) board affixed [there being then no other clues visible around to it having that (or any other) name].

Having slightly known Jack, and given the resources that he had collected, it is quite possible that he had made both boards from genuine components.

[John Hinson]

Obviously those made to go on signalboxes, whether at Great Molewood, Knebworth or, for that matter, on "heritage" railways would not be from GN line signal boxes but to discredit them as fakes is a little harsh as they were, of course, made for a specific purpose. I suspect what actually happened was that out of haste or ignorance the auction catalogue perhaps didn't make that 100% clear and somebody who wasn't totally informed put word round from there that fakes were being sold - ballooning the situation out of proportion. I wouldn't dispute it would have been wrong to describe such items as genuine originals in a catalogue (if they were) but the fault there would lie with the auctioneer for failing to research what they were selling.

Here is a cropped picture showing Bounds Green box nameplate:

Photo: N L Cadge/John Hinson collection, 10/8/73.

Complete image at https://433shop.co.uk/index.php?route=p ... t_id=11574

The other one that stands out (to me) in the picture I posted of Great Molewood was "Duck Halt" which had a story to it - if I remember rightly it was specially made for some filming to do with a book. There wasn't, of course, a real signal box of that name.

Some of the items I didn't get back from Great Molewood were letters from a signal box nameboard which had been used as firewood and these could well have been used to make up one the few special boards.

John