Signals

THE SIGNAL BOX


Railway signalling discussion

Chappel & Wakes Colne

British signalling of the past (UK, excepting Northern Ireland)

Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby kbarber » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Visited Chappel on Saturday, a bit of a pilgrimage as it's the place my father was first 'in charge' as a signalman (a Class 4 porter-signalman, back in 1953). Among his papers are some notes on some boxes he worked including a rather rough diagram of Chappel; unfortunately it has no signals drawn and only some points numbers. However it is clearly at variance with the diagram currently shown in the box (which is, apparently, worked out from a number of historical sources). Does anybody have - or would it be possible to point me to - a signalling diagram of that general era?

In 1953 Dad recorded the frame as 42 levers. The current frame, assembled from the original left dismantled in the box, has 38 and some loose floorboards at the top end about right for another 4 levers. The levers are painted in accordance with the diagram shown. If it's authentic, there must have been a huge relocking job there sometime between 1953 and closure. But why spend all that money on a quiet little job like that?
User avatar
kbarber
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: London

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby John Hinson » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:56 am

I think things happened the other way round - I believe the frame started life as 38 levers and was extended to 42 during World War II for a temporary siding. It may be that the frame has been restored to pre-war condition in preservation, and the diagram may (or may not!) accurately represent that situation.

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby kbarber » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:23 am

Thanks John. I realised after posting that I have a GERS-published set of line diagrams dated 1919. Like my father's diagram there are no signals shown and the diagrams are rather small, but they are detailed enough to give some good indications.

The frame extension would make sense - there was a 'petrol siding' or 'oil siding' installed sometime in the war that remained present - and seemingly in use - in 1953, albeit it seems to have been an extension of the existing neck at the south end of the down line. It looks as if a set of traps were put in - and presumably shunt signals in & out - but little more. My father's diagram records the traps as lever 41. However, the 1919 layout had quite a complex layout at the junction and by '53 it all seems to have been simplified to a couple of ladders. Intuitively, I'd think that would release a number of levers for the new siding, but I really ought to draw it out and check before I make that kind of statement.

The diagram now in the box shows one of the junction end crossovers removed and the main-to-main crossover outside the box reversed compared with '53. There are no traps in the oil siding, although there are shunt signals in & out; the trapping at the south end of the yard is definitely wrong. The numbering is also considerably different to my father's (rather incomplete) sketch.

Perhaps I'll try and sketch out what is known and see if I can find a way of making the various versions available, see what people think.
User avatar
kbarber
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: London

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby John Hinson » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:18 am

I hate to admit this but having looked I do not seem to have a diagram for the box at any date . . .

The Ministry of Transport of 26/10/48 for the new work refers to said Oil Siding and extension of the lever frame and records that it came into use in 1944 but was not used after 1945. There was quite a lot of wartime work that was inspected late, some yards had even been lifted before they arrived but that would appear to not be the case here. I would be surprised if the siding wasn't trapped, though.

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby John Hinson » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:41 am

kbarber wrote:The diagram now in the box shows one of the junction end crossovers removed and the main-to-main crossover outside the box reversed compared with '53. There are no traps in the oil siding, although there are shunt signals in & out; the trapping at the south end of the yard is definitely wrong.

A look at large-scale OS maps shows that before the war, what was later enlarged to become the Oil Siding was simply a stub of a spur, no larger than the single-to-double line points alongside. Therefore I think it is very unlikely that it had an outlet disc on those days. It sounds as if the diagram in the box may be a little imaginative.

I am on the case for accurate diagrams, but it may take a few weeks.

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby kbarber » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:03 am

Thank you very much John, anything you can add would be more than welcome.

I agree with your stub-of-a-spur conclusion and I imagine that's what it became once more when the oil siding was eventually lifted. There's no doubt in my mind that the diagram on show in the box is inaccurate and the person who showed me around Chappel North (couldn't fault them for hospitality) did say it had been assembled from a range of (unnamed) sources and contained a good bit of speculation.

While we're talking about my (pre)history, I don't suppose you've a late '50s diagram of Spalding No. 1 floating around have you?
User avatar
kbarber
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: London

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby John Hinson » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:37 am

kbarber wrote:Thank you very much John, anything you can add would be more than welcome.

I agree with your stub-of-a-spur conclusion and I imagine that's what it became once more when the oil siding was eventually lifted. There's no doubt in my mind that the diagram on show in the box is inaccurate and the person who showed me around Chappel North (couldn't fault them for hospitality) did say it had been assembled from a range of (unnamed) sources and contained a good bit of speculation.

While we're talking about my (pre)history, I don't suppose you've a late '50s diagram of Spalding No. 1 floating around have you?

I certainly do!

Unashamed self-promotion:
https://433shop.co.uk/index.php?route=p ... ct_id=1729

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby Shunter » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:15 am

The diagram that is in Chappel box at present is not meant to represent any historical layout. It was intended to show what could happen if the line closed and was reopened by the EARM.
When the frame was re-installed in the early 1970s, it did have 42 levers. The oil siding levers were taken out later.
Shunter
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:30 pm

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby kbarber » Wed May 3, 2017 8:47 am

Thank you for that, Shunter. Still surprised at the trapping arrangements.
User avatar
kbarber
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: London

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby kbarber » Wed May 3, 2017 9:05 am

John Hinson wrote:
kbarber wrote:Thank you very much John, anything you can add would be more than welcome.

I agree with your stub-of-a-spur conclusion and I imagine that's what it became once more when the oil siding was eventually lifted. There's no doubt in my mind that the diagram on show in the box is inaccurate and the person who showed me around Chappel North (couldn't fault them for hospitality) did say it had been assembled from a range of (unnamed) sources and contained a good bit of speculation.

While we're talking about my (pre)history, I don't suppose you've a late '50s diagram of Spalding No. 1 floating around have you?

I certainly do!

Unashamed self-promotion:
https://433shop.co.uk/index.php?route=p ... ct_id=1729

John

Thank you very much for that John... one or two old memories stirring already (but to be honest I don't recall a lot beyond general impressions of the place). Good to see it though... I recall it as a busy old job.
User avatar
kbarber
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: London

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby John Hinson » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:01 pm

kbarber wrote:Thank you for that, Shunter. Still surprised at the trapping arrangements.

And you will be - certainly I was.

Herewith the 1944 diagram:
https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=1157

The presence of the wheel stop aswell as the traps is intiguing. I think it stops movements going into the siding rather than out of it. I suspect it was put there as am attempt to replace the function of the buffer stop as it was possible to signal terminating arrivals "wrong-road" into that platform. There was only a disc and very little over-run distance for such arriving trains. Not that it would prevent an unpleasant mess.

That may in fact be the reason the siding remained for many years after being officially disused - as an over-run siding.

Some alterations were also made here in 1929, probably the post-1919 simplification of the junction you describe.

Best regards,

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Chappel & Wakes Colne

Unread postby kbarber » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:47 pm

Thank you very much for that John. PM coming your way on a related issue.
User avatar
kbarber
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: London


Return to Signalling - historical

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 8 guests