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Garve East Diagram

British signalling of the past (UK, excepting Northern Ireland)

Garve East Diagram

Unread postby 27016 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:26 pm

Looking at the diagram drawing for Garve East https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=918 why would the point and catch point connecting to the yard be worked by two separate levers Nos. 9 & 10? Has an error crept in and both the point and catch point are worked by No.9 and the ground disc exiting the yard worked by No.10?

Being mindful that errors can creep into drawings, does anyone have a photo of the diagram for Garve East?

Many thanks

Mark
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby Danny252 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:43 pm

A brief analysis of the various Highland diagrams on the site shows it to be a common arrangement - e.g. 11/12 on the same diagram, 6/7 at Garve West, 5/6 at Rogart South, 9/10 at Scotscalder South.
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby 27016 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:22 pm

Danny252 many thanks for your reply.

In the case of Garve East, would I therefore be correct in saying that No.10 catch points are protected by a ground disc which is fixed at danger - otherwise there is the risk of a conflicting move if the disc is also cleared for a movement out of the yard (when worked in conjunction with the catch point No.10) and No.3 signal is cleared for a move from the main line into the yard?
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby Ashley Hill » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:12 pm

Does the setting lever come into play here? Obviously 9/10,11/12 need to be reversed for a movement from the sidings but what contols those discs? Are separate levers usual on the HR for wherelse would be double ended points?
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby John Hinson » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:18 pm

27016 wrote:In the case of Garve East, would I therefore be correct in saying that No.10 catch points are protected by a ground disc which is fixed at danger - otherwise there is the risk of a conflicting move if the disc is also cleared for a movement out of the yard (when worked in conjunction with the catch point No.10) and No.3 signal is cleared for a move from the main line into the yard?


No - it is a disc working with the points. You have to think 1891 - it is a "points indicator" and nothing more. Neither of the siding outlet signals give authority to proceed in their own right - for that particular siding you need a tablet for the section ahead for a start.

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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby Ashley Hill » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:41 pm

So would 10 point be released by the tablet ?
Also what slotting is that below the distants ?
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby 27016 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:00 pm

John Hinson wrote:
27016 wrote:In the case of Garve East, would I therefore be correct in saying that No.10 catch points are protected by a ground disc which is fixed at danger - otherwise there is the risk of a conflicting move if the disc is also cleared for a movement out of the yard (when worked in conjunction with the catch point No.10) and No.3 signal is cleared for a move from the main line into the yard?


No - it is a disc working with the points. You have to think 1891 - it is a "points indicator" and nothing more. Neither of the siding outlet signals give authority to proceed in their own right - for that particular siding you need a tablet for the section ahead for a start.

John

Which is all the more reason why I'm querying the working of this ground disc. Even in 1891 would the Board of Trade etc have passed signalling equipment which technically cleared the route ahead onto a single line section (outside of station limits) without a token/staff being issued or use of a shunt key?

OK I could be wrong, but as an ex-railwayman I can't help but being sceptical, until a legible photograph of the box diagram is available to view.
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:18 pm

1891 was only two years after the 1889 Act (Regulation of Railways) came into force as an Act of Parliament, let alone on the ground - new lines had, pretty much, to conform immediately but it was the best part of a decade before just about everywhere conformed. I doubt whether there were many places then where even the starter was linked to the issue of of a token or staff (and, of course, in many places staff and ticket working would have been in force) let alone shunt dollies.

The safe working of the railway depended on the responsible men on the ground following the rules more or less to the letter, and that they did. It was only during the next half-century or so that mechanical and electrical controls were slowly added to make it more difficult for the men on the ground to make disastrous mistakes.
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby Stuart Johnson » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:32 pm

davidwoodcock wrote:1891 was only two years after the 1889 Act (Regulation of Railways) came into force as an Act of Parliament, let alone on the ground - new lines had, pretty much, to conform immediately but it was the best part of a decade before just about everywhere conformed. I doubt whether there were many places then where even the starter was linked to the issue of of a token or staff


Indeed. Remember Abermule!

According to David Stirling's book on single line operation, the first significant effort to interlock the section signal with a tablet instrument was a patent by Sykes in 1893, and most railways had few examples before the 1920s. Even the Abermule disaster did not give rise to a programme to install block controls, although they then became the norm on new work. Even by the early 1960s, such controls were still the exception rather than the rule on single lines.
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby 27016 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:43 pm

Gents - thanks for your replies.

Would be good to see a photo of the box diagram in BR days, if anyone can kindly oblige.
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby John Hinson » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:10 am

The LMS seem to have conducted a full survey of the Highland lines in 1931/2 as an almost full set of records exist for that date. Subsequent evidence from the dates on diagrams suggest that some (at least) locations were brought up-to-date around 1945-1949. The points indicators were either replaced by what we now regard as conventional shunt signals or removed altogether.

You have to remember this long line was really nothing more than a huge lightly used branch line. Naturally the absolute minimum was spent on everything, including signalling, because the finances didn't exist. Quite how the cost of those alterations was justified in late LMS/early BR days is questionable, but it may have been the completion of a project initiated by that 1930s survey.

Now put yourself at Garve in the real world. Presumably there was a daily tripper but I doubt it had traffic for an outpost like Garve (or anywhere else) daily. Maybe not even weekly. Just the occasional wagon to attach and detach. Somehow I doubt the signals were even used when provided. After all, everybody knew what they were doing and there would hardly be anybody in authority watching. There is only one train there, so who needs signals? The person working the frame was probably also out on the ground assisting anyway. It was a different railway to the one you, I and many others worked with elsewhere.

Stuart Johnson wrote:According to David Stirling's book on single line operation, the first significant effort to interlock the section signal with a tablet instrument was a patent by Sykes in 1893, and most railways had few examples before the 1920s. Even the Abermule disaster did not give rise to a programme to install block controls, although they then became the norm on new work. Even by the early 1960s, such controls were still the exception rather than the rule on single lines.

The Highland lines did not ever have such controls, to my knowledge. The only security they had, from day one through to resignalling, was the slotting from the Booking Office, which is where the instruments were housed. The boxes themselves could be regarded as nothing more than satellite ground frames. The diagram of Garve East shows that slot on No15 signal. No14 signal, the equivalent of a shunt-ahead signal in more recent years, allowed shunts to be made without withdrawing a tablet but made it clear to drivers that was the case.

For those that don't know, the instruments in the Booking Office and the two boxes were all worked by one member of staff (other than in very early days) who also carried out every other required duty and sometimes even ran the village Post Office. The slotting arrangements were quite complex but did not totally protect against false combinations of signal indications (by modern standards). The "setting levers" actually made the situation worse (by relaxing the interlocking), but were provided to make the job of crossing trains more practical for one man to carry out.

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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby John Hinson » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:35 am

Here is a drawing of Garve East around 1966 - most of the sidings had been removed by that date and all that was left was a short stub serving a loading bank. I think it is likely this was used for permanent-way purposes rather than general goods.
https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=1159

Close study suggests to me that provision of outlet signals may have been achieved without any locking alterations (perhaps freinds more learned than I am on locking could confirm).

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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby 27016 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:17 am

John Hinson wrote:Here is a drawing of Garve East around 1966 - most of the sidings had been removed by that date and all that was left was a short stub serving a loading bank. I think it is likely this was used for permanent-way purposes rather than general goods.
https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=1159

Close study suggests to me that provision of outlet signals may have been achieved without any locking alterations (perhaps freinds more learned than I am on locking could confirm).

John

That's excellent John and very much how I was expecting the signalling arrangements to be in BR days.

Many thanks
Mark

P.S. Do you have a diagram drawing for Garve West in BR days?
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby S&TEngineer » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:29 am

There is currently a photograph of the early layout here: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/252691623 ... -l1000.jpg and the later layout here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/upload ... 322817.jpg
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Re: Garve East Diagram

Unread postby scarpa » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:54 pm

Is there any possibility 10 and 12 points were spring in the normal position that is trailed when entering sidings ,and when trains required to leave sidings 10 or 12 lever reversed which also operate the disc signal connected to the rodding . This type of arrangement could be found on the LNER.
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