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TS&T

British signalling of the past (UK, excepting Northern Ireland)

TS&T

Unread postby GeoffSmith » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:22 am

I understand that TS&T was devised by the LNWR and first used in 1857. Is that correct?
Would be interesting to know which line it was first used on.

1860s instructions state that the Guard was to carry the Staff or Ticket, and show it to the Driver.
Instructions issued by the LBSCR on 1/12/1871 say that the Driver (of the leading engine) was to carry the Staff or Ticket and show it to the Guard.
The change can only have taken place on the instruction of the BoT, so :
When did it take place?
Was there an incident that led to the change? I have a vague recollection of reading an accident report where the carrying by the Guard was significant.

By 1877 the LBSCR was using distinct Head Code Boards and Lights to show whether a staff or ticket was being carried. Was this a BoT requirement, and, if so, when did it date from?
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby Chris Osment » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:00 pm

GeoffSmith wrote:>>>The change can only have taken place on the instruction of the BoT.......

Are you sure?

I would rather doubt that the BoT had that much influence in the late 1860s. I would suggest that it might have been simply the case of different railway companies doing things in different ways. But I stand to be corrected.....:-)
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:50 am

Society and attitudes have changed. It may well have made much more sense at the time for the guard to carry staff/ticket and verify that it was correct. In more recent times he tended to viewed as little more than a brakesman, but he was nominally in charge of the train and authorised the driver to start.
Early in the 19th century illiteracy was still common - logos on company wagons eg the NSR's knot or a diamond in the case of the LNWR were painted on wagons to enable shunters to recognise "ours" Perhaps engine drivers were not required to be able to read although a guard would need to be literate in order to carry out his duties?


I have heard of "Train following" boards on the back of trains to give notice of the running of an extra, but it's the first time I have heard of distinctive head codes to show whether a staff of ticket was carried. Who needed to know? Not the signalman, as he gets the ticket or staff when the train arrives. Presumably it warned crossing keepers and PWay which direction to expect the next train.
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:35 am

Mike Hodgson wrote:
I have heard of "Train following" boards on the back of trains to give notice of the running of an extra, but it's the first time I have heard of distinctive head codes to show whether a staff of ticket was carried. Who needed to know? Not the signalman, as he gets the ticket or staff when the train arrives. Presumably it warned crossing keepers and PWay which direction to expect the next train.


It was (is?) American practice to carry a "head code" (flags in practice, IIRC) to indicate that a train was running in more than one section (part). So was this an American practice carried over, or did it predate it and perhaps inspire its adoption over there?
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby Chris Osment » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:04 pm

Mike Hodgson wrote:I have heard of "Train following" boards on the back of trains to give notice of the running of an extra, but it's the first time I have heard of distinctive head codes to show whether a staff of ticket was carried. Who needed to know? Not the signalman, as he gets the ticket or staff when the train arrives. Presumably it warned crossing keepers and PWay which direction to expect the next train.


I was told once that it was an early Midland practice to put the train staff in a bracket fixed to the outside of the locomotive, where it would be visible to trackside staff as the train passed by, perhaps for the same sort of reason? Is that in fact true?Hopefully the brackets kept it very secure!
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:49 pm

Chris Osment wrote:
I was told once that it was an early Midland practice to put the train staff in a bracket fixed to the outside of the locomotive, where it would be visible to trackside staff as the train passed by, perhaps for the same sort of reason? Is that in fact true?Hopefully the brackets kept it very secure!


It would only be visible to those on that side of the track, so I doubt it was used to warn trackside workers.
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby GeoffSmith » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:02 pm

Chris Osment wrote:I was told once that it was an early Midland practice to put the train staff in a bracket fixed to the outside of the locomotive, where it would be visible to trackside staff as the train passed by, perhaps for the same sort of reason? Is that in fact true?Hopefully the brackets kept it very secure!


This has been subject to discussion on the Brighton Circle e-group, where some members also had the impression that displaying the staff was for the benefit of trackside staff. This is a slightly edited version of my posting, which I hope makes sense out of context :
"The first appearance of the altered Regulation 5 is in the Jan 1878 [LBSCR] WTT, and the 1876 Midland and 1878 LCDR Rule Books include the identical text :-
"When a Train or Engine is ready to start from a Station,
and no second Train or Engine is intended to follow before
the Staff will be required for a Train in the opposite direction,
it is the duty of the person in charge of the Station to give
the Staff to the Engine-Driver, who will then place it in a
socket provided for that purpose on the Engine
."
Gives the impression of being a BoT requirement. Why it was deemed necessary, 20 years after TS&T came into use, I have no idea. I had assumed it was connected with an instruction that the Staff or Ticket had to be shown to the signalman at each single line junction box or non-staff station. So, which side to display the Staff would be obvious to the crew. Whether or not the crew actually used the receptacle is another matter."

LBSCR Officers Conference proceedings 28/12/77 RAIL 414.188
1615. WORKING OF SINGLE LINES AND TRAIN STAFFS. — Mr. Stroudley to provide a proper socket for the train staff on the engines, viz., one each side of the coal bunkers of tank engines, and a socket on each side of tender engines.

On the Brighton there were few places where displaying the staff was necessary, e.g. Montpelier Junction and Kemp Town Junction for Brighton - Kemp Town services. So it seems to me that, in this case, it was most likely a BoT requirement.
Last edited by GeoffSmith on Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby GeoffSmith » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:29 pm

Mike Hodgson wrote:I have heard of "Train following" boards on the back of trains to give notice of the running of an extra, but it's the first time I have heard of distinctive head codes to show whether a staff of ticket was carried. Who needed to know? Not the signalman, as he gets the ticket or staff when the train arrives. Presumably it warned crossing keepers and PWay which direction to expect the next train.

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Re: TS&T

Unread postby John Hinson » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:05 pm

GeoffSmith wrote:On the Brighton there were few places where displaying the staff was necessary, e.g. Montpelier Junction and Kemp Town Junction for Brighton - Kemp Town services. So it seems to me that, in this case, it was most likely a BoT requirement.

I think that's rather different - it suggests permitted carrying of the staff beyond the end of the single line section, i.e. into Brighton.

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Re: TS&T

Unread postby GeoffSmith » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:20 pm

John Hinson wrote:
GeoffSmith wrote:On the Brighton there were few places where displaying the staff was necessary, e.g. Montpelier Junction and Kemp Town Junction for Brighton - Kemp Town services. So it seems to me that, in this case, it was most likely a BoT requirement.

I think that's rather different - it suggests permitted carrying of the staff beyond the end of the single line section, i.e. into Brighton.

John


I think I understand your point, and I'm clearly mistaken that the Staff would need to be shown at Montpelier Junction.
An example not involving a junction would be Mitcham - Morden - Merton Park, Morden not being a Staff station.
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:49 pm

The provision of sockets on each side suggests there was a proper side on which the staff should be exhibited regardless of whether the loco was running tender first, although the instructions quoted don't say which socket. Presumably the look-out man (at least) was required to stand on that side each of approaching train. After a train carrying the staff has passed, perhaps he was required to move to protect the gang from the opposite direction, and there was thus no need to provide look-outs in both directions?

We are talking about the era before the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and general use of telegraph, and I don't know what powers earlier Acts gave to the BoT besides inspecting new lines - I thought they mainly concerned other issues such as Communication cords, trespass and running Parliamentary trains. John's comment about carrying the staff beyond the single line seems to imply that certain junctions were not block posts and safety control of single lines fell to responsible officers such as station masters at manned stations, leaving the junction to be manned by mere pointsmen?
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby GeoffSmith » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:46 am

Mike Hodgson wrote:The provision of sockets on each side suggests there was a proper side on which the staff should be exhibited regardless of whether the loco was running tender first, although the instructions quoted don't say which socket. Presumably the look-out man (at least) was required to stand on that side each of approaching train. After a train carrying the staff has passed, perhaps he was required to move to protect the gang from the opposite direction, and there was thus no need to provide look-outs in both directions?

Displaying the Staff in a socket was for the benefit of signalmen only.

John's comment about carrying the staff beyond the single line seems to imply that certain junctions were not block posts and safety control of single lines fell to responsible officers such as station masters at manned stations, leaving the junction to be manned by mere pointsmen?

The earliest (LNWR) instructions, quoted by Galton in 1859, state
"The station master, or man in charge for the time, is the sole person authorized to receive and deliver the staff, or to issue the tickets."
The LBSCR Regulations issued 1/12/1871 say
"The Station Master, Inspector, Clerk, or other Officer or Servant in charge (for the time being) is the sole person authorised to deliver or receive the Train Staff or Ticket."
Both the above make sense to me, for the Time Interval era.
Sometime between 1874 and 1877 "Signalman" was added to the list of authorized persons.
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby Andrew Waugh » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:30 pm

GeoffSmith wrote:"The first appearance of the altered Regulation 5 is in the Jan 1878 [LBSCR] WTT, and the 1876 Midland and 1878 LCDR Rule Books include the identical text :-
"When a Train or Engine is ready to start from a Station,
and no second Train or Engine is intended to follow before
the Staff will be required for a Train in the opposite direction,
it is the duty of the person in charge of the Station to give
the Staff to the Engine-Driver, who will then place it in a
socket provided for that purpose on the Engine
."
Gives the impression of being a BoT requirement.


The BoT had nowt to do with the rule books at this time (and, AFAIK, any other). This altered regulation is almost certainly down to the introduction of the new 'model' Railway Clearing House rulebook in 1876. This was approved by the General Managers of the various companies in March 1876, and adopted on 1 July 1876. The various companies then updated their rulebooks to match (more or less) the model rulebook.

Without a lot more evidence, I also wouldn't assume that the socket was on the outside of the locomotive. To me, it just reads as a fixed location in the cab where the staff was placed for safekeeping while in the section. Placed in a socket, the staff couldn't fall off the footplate, or in the firebox, or be misplaced.
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby Andrew Waugh » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:17 pm

davidwoodcock wrote:
Mike Hodgson wrote:
I have heard of "Train following" boards on the back of trains to give notice of the running of an extra, but it's the first time I have heard of distinctive head codes to show whether a staff of ticket was carried. Who needed to know? Not the signalman, as he gets the ticket or staff when the train arrives. Presumably it warned crossing keepers and PWay which direction to expect the next train.


It was (is?) American practice to carry a "head code" (flags in practice, IIRC) to indicate that a train was running in more than one section (part). So was this an American practice carried over, or did it predate it and perhaps inspire its adoption over there?


Neither I would say.

The US practice of carrying green or white flags to indicate whether a given train was (or was not) the last section was a quite specific consequence of their Timetable and Train Order system of operation.

The short reason for this was that it indicated to opposing inferior trains whether all the sections operating on a given schedule had arrived at a crossing point.

A longer (but not complete) explanation follows for those interested.

In general, all trains under TT&TO working had to run to a timetable path - this path could be printed in a timetable, or it could be created by a train order. You could create a path by issuing a Train Order explicitly listing all the locations and the time the train would leave the location. This would be a real pain, though, as it would be a long telegram which would have to be sent to all trains affected.

Instead, it was much simpler to run additional trains as 'sections' of an existing schedule. This could be as simple as issuing a Train Order stating that a particular train would run as section of a schedule between two points. Unless otherwise instructed, all sections of the same schedule would notionally operate to exactly the same time table. (In practice, of course, they couldn't really do this. Following trains used time interval working - 15 minutes was common, from memory.)

In TT&TO working, inferior trains could not leave crossing points unless all superior opposing trains had arrived. The opposing superior train could be operating as multiple sections. It was consequently absolutely vital for inferior trains to be able to recognise whether the train they have just met is THE opposing superior train (in which case the inferior train can depart), or just one of the sections of the opposing superior train (in which case it cannot). The flags signalled whether a train was the last section on a schedule.

(I'm fairly drastically simplifying this. The Despatcher could issue orders that second and following sections could run late (i.e. so many hour & minutes behind the schedule). This was a simple way of creating a new schedule without having to list all the locations and times. Opposing trains could advance against sections if they had time to get to the next crossing point before the scheduled departure time of that section.)
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Re: TS&T

Unread postby GeoffSmith » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:52 pm

Andrew Waugh wrote:The BoT had nowt to do with the rule books at this time (and, AFAIK, any other). This altered regulation is almost certainly down to the introduction of the new 'model' Railway Clearing House rulebook in 1876. This was approved by the General Managers of the various companies in March 1876, and adopted on 1 July 1876. The various companies then updated their rulebooks to match (more or less) the model rulebook.
Thanks for the clarification.
Without a lot more evidence, I also wouldn't assume that the socket was on the outside of the locomotive. To me, it just reads as a fixed location in the cab where the staff was placed for safekeeping while in the section. Placed in a socket, the staff couldn't fall off the footplate, or in the firebox, or be misplaced.
An example on a Brighton Radial.
http://i.imgur.com/VXpqbnp.jpg
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