Signals

THE SIGNAL BOX


Railway signalling discussion

Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

British signalling of the past (UK, excepting Northern Ireland)

Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby John Hinson » Fri Sep 8, 2017 4:26 pm

One of the two rather nice Midland Rotary Blocks at Guiseley:
Image
Photo: N L Cadge, 2/5/92.

Both had a Welwyn Control mounted below them - what would that have done?

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby steve thompson » Fri Sep 8, 2017 8:14 pm

With rotary block if you had a failure all you had to do was to break the glass and seal bottom left to put the handle back to normal(line blocked). With the Welwyn control you had to turn the handle a number of times, I cannot remember the number but it took time and let the signalman think what he was doing and was it right. It also gave time for a train to arrive at his home signal that he may have forgotten. I would think having the seal and Welwyn is a bit of belt and braces.
steve thompson
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Dec 6, 2015 9:46 am

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby John Hinson » Sat Sep 9, 2017 12:29 am

If it is such a modification, it would work with the co-operative Line Clear Cancel button rather than the sealed Train-on-Line release, but as you say it would seem a bit excessive. There was nothing of that nature that I saw anywhere on the LMR, including the London end which would have been umpteen times busier than a wayside station like Guiseley. Nor was there anything, I think, on the Settle and Carlisle so I think everything points to this being a North Eastern Region modification of some sort.

Would be interested to learn more, though . . .

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby kbarber » Sat Sep 9, 2017 10:55 am

I have an idea this provision got mentioned on a thread here some little while ago, but can't find it at present. The suggestion was that it substituted for the co-operative LC release if an intermediate box were closed and you were working to a box that didn't have rotary block.
User avatar
kbarber
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: London

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Sat Sep 9, 2017 7:44 pm

Would the box instructions explain which release to use when/why if it varied according to who was switched in?
User avatar
Mike Hodgson
Main line box
Main line box
 
Posts: 2485
Joined: Fri Nov 9, 2007 5:30 pm
Location: N Herts

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby John Hinson » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:42 am

kbarber wrote:I have an idea this provision got mentioned on a thread here some little while ago, but can't find it at present. The suggestion was that it substituted for the co-operative LC release if an intermediate box were closed and you were working to a box that didn't have rotary block.

This sounds a plausible theory but for one thing - the box worked to Ilkley (a terminus) and Guiseley Junction, Shipley (the branch at a junction box) at this date so it seems neither adjacent box could switch out.

Likewise, Bradford Junction, Shipley, had a Welwyn for its sole surviving block but again it worked to Guiseley Junction on the Bradford line and I doubt that box switched out in that direction, if at all.

Study of other pictures shows this arrangement to be quite common in that area, possibly at every box with Rotary Block but I need to do a lot of study to be sure of that. But I think there is more to be learnt about this.

Best regards,

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby RDNA » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:28 am

It has just occurred to me that the co-operative Line Clear Release buttons simply allowed the signalman in advance to turn his Rotary backwards to Line Blocked if a train was Cancelled before it entered the section.

When a berth track circuit was added along with Welwyn Control this meant he had to 'wind out' before he could 'peg' another Line Clear.

Hence full sequential locking between boxes was achieved.

DB
RDNA
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Jan 1, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby John Hinson » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:26 am

The co-operative cancel was an extremely safe feature in itself - safer than a Welwyn Control because it involved two signalmen and couldn't be used after "train entering section" or with the starting signal off.

Are we certain this is the function or are we stabbing into the air? Why would BR(NER) want to make one of the safest block systems fractionally safer when so many other places on their region had far less instrument interlocking. Had there been an accident?

I just looked at a picture of Cudworth South Junction and it seems the same arrangement existed south of Leeds too.

Does anybody know anyone who worked along the line to give us first-hand evidence?

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby Thackley » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:38 am

The truth is that the NER did abolish the co-operative release. The why's are probably now lost in the mists of time.. The LCC plunger on the instrument no longer did anything, but wasn't removed. You wound the winder until the R appeared in the little window, unpegged the block, and then wound to N.

Boring answer I know
Thackley
Trainee
Trainee
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:31 am

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby RDNA » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:03 pm

by John Hinson » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:26 am

The co-operative cancel was an extremely safe feature in itself - safer than a Welwyn Control because it involved two signalmen and couldn't be used after "train entering section" or with the starting signal off.

Are we certain this is the function or are we stabbing into the air? Why would BR(NER) want to make one of the safest block systems fractionally safer when so many other places on their region had far less instrument interlocking. Had there been an accident?

I just looked at a picture of Cudworth South Junction and it seems the same arrangement existed south of Leeds too.


Here's another "stab in the air" John -

When the North Eastern / Eastern Regions of BR were given responsibility for the former Midland Railway north of Chesterfield their Signal Engineers Departments reaction may have been "What's This?" "We don't do it like that!"

Dave
RDNA
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Jan 1, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby John White » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:33 pm

John -
I first came across this arrangement at Garsdale, when testing the alterations to change the Rotary Blocks to Penguins & Welwyn. That would be circa 2002, I think.
From memory, which is a little hazy now, the Garsdale Welwyn Winder worked with the Up Rotary Pegger to Kirkby Stephen, and was for cancelling an Up 'Line Clear'.
The Welwyn Winder had been modified to additionally show 'R' in the window at 52 turns of the handle, which is the point at which the Welwyn Release usually resets the One Train circuit. To cancel L.C. you wound 52 turns until R showed in window, then the Cancel Lock would lift, and you could turn the pegger backward to Line Blocked. Then the handle was turned a further 8 turns to bring the 'N' visible, which completed the Home Normal Circuit again, ready for the next LC.
I don't remember anything being fitted to the Down Circuit, which would make sense, as Garsdale worked to Blea Moor which was also rotary block at the time. We were told that this arrangement dated from the years that 'The Eastern' were looking after the SAC line, (late 1980's 1990's) so your comments regarding the N.E. would make sense.

The Rotary Block LC Cancel, (again from memory, so E&OE) uses Earth as part of the circuit, which was not a problem until the pole routes were replaced with multicore cables in the late 1960s -70s. The overhead wires had a resistance of something like 7 ohms a mile, but the multicores which replaced them were 49-50 ohms a mile. The resistance of long block sections thus increased to many hundreds of ohms per mile, and all kinds of modifications were required, eg. increasing the battery voltage and doubling the conductors were the norm. If I remember correctly, the LC Cancel did not operate a relay; the line wires went straight to the electric lock, which required more current than the Block circuit, and consequently just refused to operate with such a large resistance in the line wires. Thus an alternative form of LC Cancel was required.

Somewhere I have some photos from the Garsdale job, and, possibly the old wiring diagram, but they might take awhile to find.

Hope this has jogged someone's memory, and we can find out some more,
best wishes,
John White.
John White
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 7:53 pm
Location: Near PN217

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby John Hinson » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:57 pm

Thackley wrote:The truth is that the NER did abolish the co-operative release. The why's are probably now lost in the mists of time.. The LCC plunger on the instrument no longer did anything, but wasn't removed. You wound the winder until the R appeared in the little window, unpegged the block, and then wound to N.

Boring answer I know

Not at all boring, very interesting in fact! The implications until now had leant towards their being in addition to the LCC buttons but things do make more sense as you describe.

John White wrote:John -
I first came across this arrangement at Garsdale, when testing the alterations to change the Rotary Blocks to Penguins & Welwyn. That would be circa 2002, I think.
{snipped]

That is very interesting, too, and indeed the possible reason. I didn't think the Eastern Region ever managed north of Cononley, though? The only photograph I have found so far shows the arrangement there must have been post-1977.

Incidentally, your memory is perfect, the Rotaries were replaced on 11th September 2002.

Best regards,

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby John White » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:05 pm

John,
Following privatisation, Jarvis took over the maintenance of the former Regional Railways area in the North West.
Skipton - Low House, which had always been LMR Manchester Division's, went to the Eastern half of the Jarvis empire, and was run from the Leeds and Doncaster offices. During this time - I would guess at 1995 to 1999 - quite a number of improvements were carried out on the SAC; the old LMS 3 aspect colour light distants were replaced, the remaining semaphore distants were converted to colour lights, and block switches were fitted at some signalboxes which previously never had them.
So yes, the influence of the (LN)ER went considerably north of Cononley for a few years.
John White.
John White
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 7:53 pm
Location: Near PN217

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby John Hinson » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:12 am

Ah, understood.

Many thanks.

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6859
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Midland Rotary Block at Guiseley

Unread postby Pete2320 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:59 pm

John Hinson wrote:
kbarber wrote:I have an idea this provision got mentioned on a thread here some little while ago, but can't find it at present. The suggestion was that it substituted for the co-operative LC release if an intermediate box were closed and you were working to a box that didn't have rotary block.

This sounds a plausible theory but for one thing - the box worked to Ilkley (a terminus) and Guiseley Junction, Shipley (the branch at a junction box) at this date so it seems neither adjacent box could switch out.

Likewise, Bradford Junction, Shipley, had a Welwyn for its sole surviving block but again it worked to Guiseley Junction on the Bradford line and I doubt that box switched out in that direction, if at all.

Study of other pictures shows this arrangement to be quite common in that area, possibly at every box with Rotary Block but I need to do a lot of study to be sure of that. But I think there is more to be learnt about this.

Best regards,

John

In the days when Guiseley had Rotary Block (and a frame!) it actually worked to Esholt Junction and Burley in Wharfedale. Burley certainly could switch out and I think Esholt could as well. I don't know what type of instruments were provided in these boxes. Esholt certainly had a couple of LNER(ND) standard instruments latterly, one for Apperley Junction but I can't remember what type of instruments worked to Guiseley.
In due course both Guiseley and Ilkley received panels and a penguin block. I can't remember in what order but presumably one of the penguins worked to a rotary instrument and in any case, Burley was still there for a while. But did Burley and Ilkley ever have rotary block?
So I think it possible that the winders were provided to cope with working to a non Rotary box but the electrical reasons may have also applied. Certainly they seem very widespread in the NER, possibly universal but that might only have applied latterly when many boxes had been abolished.
Pete
Pete2320
Main line box
Main line box
 
Posts: 2118
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:50 pm
Location: Barton on Humber

Next

Return to Signalling - historical

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests