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Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

British signalling of the past (UK, excepting Northern Ireland)

Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby Richard Maund » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:53 pm

In early 1920 the Joint Committee decided that they didn't need this box to be open all hours because movements towards Bottesford East (and Grantham) were only during the two day shifts and movements towards Bottesford North (and Newark) were only during the night shift (the latter for two GN freights each way). The GN&LNW Joint Officers' Committee min. 3664 ("The section of line between Bottesford North and South Junction boxes being only used by trains passing during the night, it is recommended that these boxes be closed during the daytime") was 30 April 1920, and min. 3701 ("Bottesford South signal box has been closed" - i.e. the deed had been done) was not until 29 April 1921.

The block posts page of July 1921 wtt shows North open on nights (2130 to 0420) whereas South is shown: "Temporarily closed. South Junction points lay (sic) for East box during the time that North box is closed, and for North box during the time that North box is open." In other words, no staffing hours given. So how would the twice-daily changing of the points and block circuits be accomplished? Someone must have been deputed to alter the lie of the junction from facing east on days to north on nights (and back again next morning). While I could understand a signalman from an adjacent box being deputed to throw the points, twice daily, I'm not clear how the block switching would work: each evening at nine thirty what would happen? - could no. 17 points simply be thrown without switching the South box in to the Stathern - East block circuit? - were the no. 17 points not locked by the block? If they were, there would have to be switching in and out with the respective adjacent boxes. So was the South box manned - albeit perhaps only for two very short periods while the points were changed each day? Or was the whole process carried out remotely - and if so from where and how?
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Re: Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:17 pm

Richard Maund wrote:In early 1920 the Joint Committee decided that they didn't need this box to be open all hours because movements towards Bottesford East (and Grantham) were only during the two day shifts and movements towards Bottesford North (and Newark) were only during the night shift (the latter for two GN freights each way). The GN&LNW Joint Officers' Committee min. 3664 ("The section of line between Bottesford North and South Junction boxes being only used by trains passing during the night, it is recommended that these boxes be closed during the daytime") was 30 April 1920, and min. 3701 ("Bottesford South signal box has been closed" - i.e. the deed had been done) was not until 29 April 1921.

The block posts page of July 1921 wtt shows North open on nights (2130 to 0420) whereas South is shown: "Temporarily closed. South Junction points lay (sic) for East box during the time that North box is closed, and for North box during the time that North box is open." In other words, no staffing hours given. So how would the twice-daily changing of the points and block circuits be accomplished? Someone must have been deputed to alter the lie of the junction from facing east on days to north on nights (and back again next morning). While I could understand a signalman from an adjacent box being deputed to throw the points, twice daily, I'm not clear how the block switching would work: each evening at nine thirty what would happen? - could no. 17 points simply be thrown without switching the South box in to the Stathern - East block circuit? - were the no. 17 points not locked by the block? If they were, there would have to be switching in and out with the respective adjacent boxes. So was the South box manned - albeit perhaps only for two very short periods while the points were changed each day? Or was the whole process carried out remotely - and if so from where and how?

I don't know for a fact but I would assume that the box would have to be opened in the normal way, there would definitely be two separate block switches one for each route and on opening the box the signals would be replaced the junction moved and then the box closed out on the other switch from the one used to open it.
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Re: Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby GNRSIGNALS » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:33 pm

when I lived next to the joint line in the 1950s until complete closure of the line ,there was train movement at night from Doncaster to Northampton and during the day there was train movement to Colwick with passenger service to Grantham from Leicester and Market Harborough up to early 1950`s :)
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Re: Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby vic south » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:47 pm

I've read somewhere that in later days (the fifties I think) that the East Jct Signalman's duties included switching out and going round to open South for a brief period to deal with a single train that required the box open. He then switched out and went back to East Jct to continue his shift. Maybe this arrangement had it's roots back in pre-grouping days.

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Re: Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby Richard Maund » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:01 am

vic south wrote:I've read somewhere that in later days (the fifties I think) that the East Jct Signalman's duties included switching out and going round to open South for a brief period to deal with a single train that required the box open. He then switched out and went back to East Jct to continue his shift. Maybe this arrangement had it's roots back in pre-grouping days.

Andrew


Surely East box could not have been switched out - wouldn't that box be necessary to be open in order to be in circuit with the next box south of South Jn (Harby Jn), in order that South Jn could switch in? Perhaps it was one of the East Jn signalmen before going on or after going off duty at East Jn who went round to South Jn to perform the brief tasks....
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Re: Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:05 am

Richard Maund wrote:
vic south wrote:I've read somewhere that in later days (the fifties I think) that the East Jct Signalman's duties included switching out and going round to open South for a brief period to deal with a single train that required the box open. He then switched out and went back to East Jct to continue his shift. Maybe this arrangement had it's roots back in pre-grouping days.

Andrew


Surely East box could not have been switched out - wouldn't that box be necessary to be open in order to be in circuit with the next box south of South Jn (Harby Jn), in order that South Jn could switch in? Perhaps it was one of the East Jn signalmen before going on or after going off duty at East Jn who went round to South Jn to perform the brief tasks....

It all rather depends on whether 'Line Clear' Releases existed on the section signals or not, if not (and probably not) then leaving East box to open South would be no problem at all.
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Re: Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby Richard Maund » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:12 am

It all rather depends on whether 'Line Clear' Releases existed on the section signals or not, if not (and probably not) then leaving East box to open South would be no problem at all.


But wouldn't there need to be a signalman on duty at East box at ca.0430 when South box endeavoured to restore the circuit to East box, in order to reset South junction to face east instead of north?
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Re: Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby Danny252 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:11 pm

Why could that process not be carried out with East Jn switched out, switching South Jn into the long block section between the boxes either side of East Jn and South Jn?

Of course, there's the issue that no traffic could pass East-North during this time, but vic south's anecdote refers to "open[ing] South for a brief period to deal with a single train" in the 1950s, rather than the originally quoted working of swinging the points for the entirety of the time between 2130-0420 in 1921.
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Re: Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:27 pm

Richard Maund wrote:
It all rather depends on whether 'Line Clear' Releases existed on the section signals or not, if not (and probably not) then leaving East box to open South would be no problem at all.


But wouldn't there need to be a signalman on duty at East box at ca.0430 when South box endeavoured to restore the circuit to East box, in order to reset South junction to face east instead of north?

Not if you don't require a 'Line Clear' on the block to clear the signals which historically was very common.
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Re: Bottesford South Junction (GN&LNW Joint)

Unread postby GNRSIGNALS » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:51 pm

In the 50`s the east jct box was open when the summer holiday traffic and the south jct box was switch out until the last passenger train passed
and the points was reset so the connection between the north and south boxes freight travel to Welham Sidings over night . During the day north jct points was set for trains going the west jct for Colwick and Doncaster .
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