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Wembley Central (DC lines) Fixed Red Signals

Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:40 am
by KEVIN SMITH
A few years after the signalling was renewed on the DC electric lines in 1986 between Euston and Watford Junction, Wembley Central received two extra signals in the form of ground mounted fixed reds. The one on the up line WS39 was located beyond the GF worked trailing crossover towards North Wembley station while the other one WS40 was at the London end of the down platform ramp. What was their purpose and are there any others like this on the network?

Another interesting thing about WS40 was it used "0" on its number. At first this may not seem unusual, but when the line was resignalled the up line signals (Even numbers) did not use it i.e. there was no 10 , 20, 30 etc. Was this because the London underground shared the line and zero might be confused with a draw up signal?

Re: Wembley Central (DC lines) Fixed Red Signals

Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:31 pm
by StevieG
KEVIN SMITH wrote: "A few years after the signalling was renewed on the DC electric lines in 1986 between Euston and Watford Junction, Wembley Central received two extra signals in the form of ground mounted fixed reds. The one on the up line, WS39, was located beyond the GF worked trailing crossover towards North Wembley station, while the other one, WS40, was at the London end of the down platform ramp. What was their purpose and are there any others like this on the network? .... "
I can't quote chapter and verse on this point KEVIN SMITH, but feel sure that it would've been to align with provisions at stations (those under ground only?) on LUL infrastructure because of the Bakerloo line train service through to Harrow.

This provision at those LUL stations followed what, I think I recall, was a Piccadilly line incident at a station somewhere between King's Cross and Finsbury Park, where owing to disruption, delay, station problem or train defect somewhere , the instruction of a Line control intention to a driver to do something like terminate and turn back (presumably through a crossover) in the opposite direction, was miscommunicated/interpreted, and the driver changed ends and drove his train back along the same line in the wrong direction for some significant distance.

So the 'fixed' reds appeared as a positive reminder/'message' to prevent a recurrence, and presumably requiring a definite authority to pass the red if genuinely needed.

If this is the correct answer for 'fixed' reds at Wembley Central, then I would expect that they had been provided at all station platforms from Kensal Green to Harrow where there was no workable 'wrong direction' signal.

Re: Wembley Central (DC lines) Fixed Red Signals

Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:48 am
by tjc
The LU incident was inded at King's Cross, and following that fixed red lights were installed at the 'wrong' end of platforms where the risk of a detrainment arose; not just the station which had the crossover but also one before, in certain circumstances. At deep tube stations they were accompanied by trainstops as well.

Deep tube stations where it was not expected that detrainment would regularly occur only recieved retro-reflective stop boards, and no special provision was made at sub-surface or open stations.

I wouldn't have expected a fixed red to be provided at every station from Kensal Green to Harrow in that circumstance - though I'd agree Wembley needing them because of the crossover, which from memory was handsignalled? It's been a while since I was on the Bakerloo and then didn't tend to go north of Queen's Park.

There shouldn't have been any confusion with draw-up signals as they use three digit numbers; had the signal been WS400 I could understand the confusion, but not WS40.

Re: Wembley Central (DC lines) Fixed Red Signals

Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:39 pm
by StevieG
Thanks for the info. about reflective boards vs. red lights tjc. I had mistakenly thought that all provisions were red lights.
tjc wrote: " .... There shouldn't have been any confusion with draw-up signals as they use three digit numbers; had the signal been WS400 I could understand the confusion, but not WS40 "
... But on NR infrastructure I would have thought that that sort of LU numbering convention (400 / 40) would not have been applied.?

Re: Wembley Central (DC lines) Fixed Red Signals

Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:28 pm
by barriersraised
There is a fixed red at North Walsham I do recall TB23 which is a fixed red, on the up platform moving into the down direction. Which would indicate that NWR do not have the same numbering

Re: Wembley Central (DC lines) Fixed Red Signals

Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:54 pm
by KEVIN SMITH
Looks like the red lights are for LT drivers. I had a idea in the back of my head they had something to do with preventing some kind of wrong line movement just could not figure out why they was needed there .

As for the non use of zero , it looks like the jury is still out on this one so far. Just looked at some LT books on signalling yes I remember now it is two zeros for draw up signals my mistake ! All I can say is they had no choice as to number it 40 because all other even numbers had been used up. Of course they could have numbered it 92 or something as the original numbering did not go into the nineties but that might not be the right thing to do !

Re: Wembley Central (DC lines) Fixed Red Signals

Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:57 pm
by Bob Davies
StevieG wrote:Thanks for the info. about reflective boards vs. red lights tjc. I had mistakenly thought that all provisions were red lights.
tjc wrote: " .... There shouldn't have been any confusion with draw-up signals as they use three digit numbers; had the signal been WS400 I could understand the confusion, but not WS40 "
... But on NR infrastructure I would have thought that that sort of LU numbering convention (400 / 40) would not have been applied.?

Indeed. My guess is that WS40 was just a spare number in the right area. A fixed signal used in this way would not be a normal BR requirement but I understand the need for its application to get consistency for LU drivers so perhaps it was omitted in the original design but added later at LU's request?

The resignalling was 1988, by the way, not 1986.

Re: Wembley Central (DC lines) Fixed Red Signals

Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:12 pm
by Fast Line Floyd
The reason for these two signals specifically was because of the relatively high usage of Wembley Central to turn the service during weekend engineering work using the ground frame and no fixed signals.

WS 40 was just used as a spare number that was available and not of any other significance.