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Cambrian ERTMS

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Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby Alan Roberts » Sat May 15, 2010 9:14 am

Just had a quick look at the Weekly Operating Notice (WR 08) dated Sat 22nd May - Friday 28th May and Section C states the following :-

BETWEEN HARLECH AND PWLLHELI FROM 0001 HOURS SATURDAY 22 MAY 2010.



The commissioning of ERTMS Level 2 in-cab signalling between Harlech and Pwllheli has been postponed until further notice. Regulations for train signalling and general working instructions for lines controlled by the Radio Electronic Token Block (RETB) system will continue to apply.

Lineside signs and points indicators will not be altered.

Details of the new arrangements were contained in yellow signalling notice no. NR/GW/15 which should now be withdrawn. A replacement notice will be issued when a new commissioning date is agreed.

Sectional Appendix and signal box instructions that were altered to take account of the planned ERTMS commissioning will be either deleted or changed back to how they originally applied.

(C0598) (22/5/10) (11)


What I have been told its something to do with poor communications beyond Harlech. Perhaps somebody can update me on this.



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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby Stuart Johnson » Sun May 16, 2010 1:45 pm

I have been told of problems with the on-board equipment (which may come down to the same thing, of course).
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Mon May 17, 2010 8:06 am

The interface with the driver on ERTMS is via the DMI (driver machine interface) a touch screen which at the moment is suffering with refelctions and glare and so at times is unreadable. Also because of the cab layout on the class 97's (37's) the driver looks like a nodding dog whilst the train is moving and there are other problems with the 97's which need resolution before the line can convert.

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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby John Webb » Mon May 17, 2010 7:02 pm

The problems with 'screen glare' have been reported on the BBC's text news service for Wales, which my partner came across a few minutes ago and came to ask me if I'd heard anything about it.
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby JRB » Mon May 17, 2010 11:38 pm

Also in RAIL magazine.
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Tue May 18, 2010 2:30 pm

Nice idea Mike, but this is a pan European specification which does not allow for that in the sense that you refer. Also the Cambrian line is being used to prove the principle of cab based signalling via radio without lineside signals.

In addition as this the project is being done on a budget (what isn't these days) the cost of the provision of signals is much higher than would first be thought.

Provision of lineside equipment (not just the signal but AWS and TPWS) to drive them, additional system testing, a further set of briefing material for drivers and signallers, the need to reconfigure the train borne equipment to accept AWS and TPWS operation in parrallel with working in cab signalling equipment (currently it is either one or the other but not both) and last but not least a complete rewrite of most of the standards to which the system has been built which will then conflict with the European specification and hence would fail to meet the interoperability requirement of the system.

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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby LlaniGraham » Mon May 24, 2010 12:05 pm

I see that this weeks WON states it will not be implemented "until further notice"

AND

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8687851.stm
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Mon May 24, 2010 1:45 pm

A full live test was carried out on the line last February with the DMU fleet that are to use the line and there were no other problems reported that were down to the system, which is already working in other countries including China!

The problem with glare is partly down to the old stock being retro fitted, more modern cabs will cope much better as there was some thought given to the instalation even though it wasn't fitted at commissioning.

There are problems however with the speed curves of the class 97 diesel locos which have been discovered since the test in February and these will need careful attention before these loco's can work in ERTMS on the line.

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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby The Planner » Mon May 24, 2010 4:07 pm

Cambrian has a stupid level of performance now, the timetable is that slack its difficult for anything to be late. The only thing that causes a problem is if the down train is late reaching Talerddig. It's more likely months instead of weeks too....
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby JRB » Mon May 24, 2010 9:56 pm

Jersey_Mike wrote:The cab signal display unit is an interesting choice due to the size of its footprint on the control console. New Jersey Transit recently had to deal with fitting a new technology cab signal apparatus to their older fleet of rolling stock and their solution was a 4"x6" LDC display taking the place of the old speedometer on the 'A pillar' corner of the MU cab. Amtrak and it's tenant operators just fitted this magic black box for its new ACSES system. A similar magic box has been fitted for the ITCS system out in Michigan which has the same functionality as ETRMS.

The same functionality as ERTMS presented on a 4" X 6" display would rquire VERY good eyesight. Remember the amount of information presented.
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby LlaniGraham » Sat May 29, 2010 1:00 am

Being as NR has got to find £100k savings minimum, will ERTMS continue?
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby The Planner » Sat May 29, 2010 7:54 am

Yes, its too far gone to be pulled. The WAG also funded some of the loop works with the intention of the hourly timetable. They wont best pleased if NR tried to pull a stunt like that.
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby edwin_m » Sat May 29, 2010 8:59 am

They've spent most of the money on the Cambrian (they hope) so it ought to be far cheaper to carry on than to throw it away and install something else. According to a colleague who understands these things, £100m is a drop in the ocean for NR and they never manage to spend up to their budget anyway.

As far as I'm aware one of the objectives of the Cambrian scheme was to get a view on the actual costs of ERTMS. If it comes out more expensive than conventional or modular signalling, then some of the later ERTMS schemes might not happen and there will be savings in the next control period (from 2014). I suspect EU directives pretty much force them to use it when the principal main lines are resignalled.
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby Tulyar15 » Sun May 30, 2010 6:04 pm

edwin_m wrote:They've spent most of the money on the Cambrian (they hope) so it ought to be far cheaper to carry on than to throw it away and install something else. According to a colleague who understands these things, £100m is a drop in the ocean for NR and they never manage to spend up to their budget anyway.
Really? And there was I think they were always having problems with cost overruns, though to be fair they do seem to be getting better.

edwin_m wrote:As far as I'm aware one of the objectives of the Cambrian scheme was to get a view on the actual costs of ERTMS. If it comes out more expensive than conventional or modular signalling, then some of the later ERTMS schemes might not happen and there will be savings in the next control period (from 2014). I suspect EU directives pretty much force them to use it when the principal main lines are resignalled.


I wonder how the EU proposes to enforce this directive, given that generally they seem very ineffective at enforcing directives.
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Re: Cambrian ERTMS

Unread postby JRB » Sun May 30, 2010 6:32 pm

The demise of RETB will certainly enforce something. Back to ETT? RETB2 with new radio frequencies and currently avalable components? Closure? R&ER radio despatching? ERTMS?
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