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Banner signals electro mechanical

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Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby scarpa » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:33 am

A recent visit to Glasgow revealed two electro mech. type Banner signals outside Eglington Tunnel. They were of the lower quadrant type, not used to coming across lower quadrant type. Were all mechanical type lower quadrant in the former Scottish region? Banner signals found on the eastern region were generally upper quadrant and even on the western region upper quadrant was found, for example signals OO 139R and OO 142R. When a Banner signal from the regional workshops was requested I wonder if what was supplied was what was available? What type was found on the LM and SR? The electro mech. type are being replaced with fibre optic type. I wonder what is the total number of electro mech. types left working, discounting modern miniature electro mech. types.
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:44 am

Obviously not applicable to a tunnel mouth banner, but where banner signals are of the doubled sided type, it would be both both quadrants at the same time, which version you see depending on which side of the post you are.
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby scarpa » Thu Dec 1, 2016 2:57 pm

Mike you must be confused.Tell us where double sided banner signals existed and for what purpose? Banner signals are viewed in one direction just like a signal!
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby Mad Mac » Thu Dec 1, 2016 3:02 pm

There was one at Dumfries! I think the term "double sided" might be misleading, more a case of two " back to back".
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby Chris Osment » Thu Dec 1, 2016 8:54 pm

Mike Hodgson wrote:Obviously not applicable to a tunnel mouth banner, but where banner signals are of the doubled sided type, it would be both both quadrants at the same time, which version you see depending on which side of the post you are.


I can understand that if indeed they were double-sided, but if - as you now say - it was two back-to-back, then surely they would both work in the same quadrant?
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby edwin_m » Thu Dec 1, 2016 9:48 pm

Would a double-sided version have two banners back-to-back with a common shaft? If so then they would work in opposite quadrants.
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby Bob Davies » Thu Dec 1, 2016 10:35 pm

Like scarpa, I do not think there is any such thing as a double-sided electro-mechanical banner so speculating on how it might work is at best academic. If someone can show me such an animal, I should be fascinated and then is the time to discuss its operation.
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby John Hinson » Fri Dec 2, 2016 4:09 am

Quite.

Focussing on the original question I suspect there may be standards on new banner signals but the old type would not come under those requirements. I am pretty certain "lower quadrant" banner signals were still being supplied long into upper quadrant days but suspect at some point a decision was made to manufacture them to mimick upper quadrants.

Whichever way they indicate is pretty academic as long as it is 45 degrees and it becomes even less significant if they are repeating colour-light signals.

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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby Mad Mac » Fri Dec 2, 2016 5:22 am

Getting back to one of the original points (remaining population), there's probably a fair number still around. However, I recall that in late 1993, during the repairs to Newton Street tunnel (between Greenock and Gourock) the electro-mechanical banner at Fort Matilda Station was damaged by contractors, and even then, it was impossible to source a replacement. It ended up being renewed as a fibre optic after a protracted fight over design costs!
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby RichardH » Fri Dec 2, 2016 9:50 am

Bob Davies wrote:Like scarpa, I do not think there is any such thing as a double-sided electro-mechanical banner so speculating on how it might work is at best academic. If someone can show me such an animal, I should be fascinated and then is the time to discuss its operation.

Double sided banners were mentioned in the thread below, although unfortunately my pictures of the one formerly at Lingfield are no longer available on this site. Basically it was a single small banner arm in a case glazed front and rear as it was mid-way along a platform. It was illuminated by bulbs in the top of the case and showed UQ on the approach side.

http://forum.signalbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5935
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby Bob Davies » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:32 pm

RichardH wrote:Double sided banners were mentioned in the thread below, although unfortunately my pictures of the one formerly at Lingfield are no longer available on this site. Basically it was a single small banner arm in a case glazed front and rear as it was mid-way along a platform. It was illuminated by bulbs in the top of the case and showed UQ on the approach side.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5935

The references in that thread were (principally) about the miniature SYX banners, which do, I accept, have a double-sided version but the use of those is limited to the equivalent of an 'OFF' indicator at stations. This thread started life as a discussion on full-sized banners but if it is now including the miniature ones, then my blanket assertion as to their non-existence needs to be modified accordingly.
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Fri Dec 2, 2016 4:08 pm

John Hinson wrote:Whichever way they indicate is pretty academic as long as it is 45 degrees and it becomes even less significant if they are repeating colour-light signals.


Not quite academic, John. The Southern, at least, sometimes used Sykes banners as tunnel distants (either end of Penge Tunnel being an example but there were others) and it was obviously very desirable that their movement should mimic that of the semaphore starters mounted above them (even though I have been surprised to come across SR examples where working UQ and LQ arms were mounted on the same signalling structure).
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby John Hinson » Fri Dec 2, 2016 5:51 pm

davidwoodcock wrote:Not quite academic, John. The Southern, at least, sometimes used Sykes banners as tunnel distants (either end of Penge Tunnel being an example but there were others) and it was obviously very desirable that their movement should mimic that of the semaphore starters mounted above them (even though I have been surprised to come across SR examples where working UQ and LQ arms were mounted on the same signalling structure).

I don't see why it is desirable at all. I doubt many drivers give (or gave) the slightest thought to what we choose to call "upper" or "lower" quadrant when all they are looking for is a black bar which is either horizontal or inclined at 45 degrees.

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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Fri Dec 2, 2016 7:44 pm

John Hinson wrote:I don't see why it is desirable at all. I doubt many drivers give (or gave) the slightest thought to what we choose to call "upper" or "lower" quadrant when all they are looking for is a black bar which is either horizontal or inclined at 45 degrees.



But in the case of the SR's "tunnel distants" the banner repeater (albeit painted with a black, not white, background and with a largely yellow, in the the style of a distant arm, bar) was placed immediately below a motor-worked semaphore starter arm. Having the two mixed UQ/LQ would have looked as odd as having a normal starter plus distant signal with one arm UQ and the other LQ, which I (dangerously) presume never existed (difficult to slot?).

The ones I knew in the 1950s were all UQ, but I suspect that the one at Sydenham Hill, at least, was LQ when first installed suggesting that the banner tunnel distant was also changed from LQ to UQ when the arm was (on the same post).
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Re: Banner signals electro mechanical

Unread postby JRB » Fri Dec 2, 2016 8:54 pm

There was at least one lower quadrant stop signal with a lower distant that was physically U.Q. but fixed.
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