Re: BR(W) Drawing Index

[Adrian Crafer]

I have just posted on my signalworks website, the index of BR(W) M series drawings as currently compiled. I have still not finished transcribing the registers, quite a way to go until I finish. The Footbridges and Station canopy drawings that form part of this drawing series have also still to be added.

I would be gratefull for any one who can add full titles and other details for sub pages not shown, as the sub pages e.g. MA1234/22 etc are not normally listed in the register, just the generic title for the base number. I would also be interested in titles of drawings higher in the sequence than 9399 the limit of the registers I have on loan to me where the title is not shown in this listing.

http://www.signalworks.co.uk/draw1.pdf

Yes I must also do something about the website, as the other material I have assembled has still not been upload in a coherant form.

Adrian

[Andrew Waugh]

A lot of work!

Do you know the history of the drawing registration scheme?

I'm in the middle of photographing the index cards for the Victorian Railways (about 40 boxes with around 1000 cards in each box - it's a long term project . They used a somewhat similar control system, and I'm wondering if there was a common root (US?), or if these systems were common/standard in manufacturing shops

The local control system also uses a letter to indicate the drawing size (A to N). It also, not surprisingly, used foolscap as its base, however the sizes were not labelled consecutively. Instead the F was used to indicate foolscap, with the size then increasing from A. The drawings were then numbered within each size, unlike the GWR which numbered all the drawings within each sequence. Unlike the GWR, the VR did not use multiple pages for drawings.

The system seems to have been introduced around 1915-7 when a lot of work was being done to introduce US power signalling - leading me to suspect that it was US system.

Interestingly enough, this drawing control system was NOT used by the other departments of the Victorian Railways.

[MRFS]

The system seems to have been introduced around 1915-7 when a lot of work was being done to introduce US power signalling - leading me to suspect that it was US system.

It is worth noting that the UERL/LPTB signalling drawings were organised along the same lines, for pretty much the same reason, amendments were indicated by a superscript letter - the earliest I now know of is GS 241 from 1912, later amended to FS 241 when the drawing size changed.

[Keith]

...GS 241 from 1912, later amended to FS 241 when the drawing size changed.

Surely the letters must have had different meanings from those described by Andrew, otherwise G to F would have been a huge change?

[MRFS]

All I know is that it is related to paper size, not what the paper sizes comprise.

The drawing looks to have been reworked in possibly two stages to include the W&B and the stageworks at Hammersmith; I suspect the varied shenanigans at Hammersmith caused the change in size.

[Adrian Crafer]

A lot of work!

Do you know the history of the drawing registration scheme?

I am afraid that the registers do not give any clue as to the dates they run from.

The early numbers do not have papersizes ascribed to them. Paper sizes being only routinely recorded in the register from the 1950s when a lot of redrawing was undertaken. Prior to that, the register only lists a plain number as entered. From my own drawing holding, early drawings often did only have just the plain number with and without the 'M'. On up issue they often acquired a paper size letter, and some early drawings have a paper size without being an up issue, and some have just had it added. Dates are only recorded routinely in the register from 1938.

When they acquired a paper size letter, it was often 'E' or 'D' as drawings usually had all the components on the one page rather than spreading it across several drawings. The 1950s exercise of redrawing many drawings split parts either onto seperate drawing numbers, or on to /nn sub pages.

The early register is all very nicely written in copper plate, much by the same hand so presumably the drawing office had a clerk who kept the records. In order to facilitate locating drawings, they would appear to have been stored in 'packets' . For example Packet 4, drawings 9, 10 & 11 were all nuts and bolts; Packet 14 was Cranes; Packet 6 Facing Point Locks. Packet 25, Level Crossings some 106 drawings have in most cases had the the paper sizes added in at a later date, as has packet 26 for Signal Boxes. Either squeezed in as a pencil or ink addition to the entry along with other comments. Coloured pencil was also used occasionally.

The numbering allocates blocks of numbers by discipline. This all seems very uniform up to about packet 65, from then on drawings are allocated to packets already issued and others to new packets. This may suggest that previous to this point, drawings were either not numbered, and were now numbered, or they were renumbered into a uniform series. This later idea would seem to be supported by the dates on the drawings. 223 Horrabridge Crossing 1911; 263 Bovey Crossing 1918, but 270 Bridport East Street Crossing 1914 and 286 Bradpole Level Crossing 1911.

The last drawing to be allocated a packet was no. 1990 - F.P.L. Chair 01 Section to packet 11. Packet 11 was all rail chairs. You will be surprised what was a Reading Signal works product, but you will have to wait for the rest of the early numbers to be added.

For the record Swindon Works just used a plain serial number system until it adopted the BR numbering for standard wagons, coaches and locomotives. The serial system continuing for non standard items until the metric paper numbering system came in, with I suppose BREL.

Reading works did not as far as I can see adopt the BRS/SM numbering system for its drawings, and from such BR/SM items as were used by the western region as far as I have ascertained were redrawn as Reading drawings with a cross reference. MAS etc still continued the same drawing formats even though size A had become A4 and B A3 etc at some point in the process.

Where a level crossing had gates replaced by barriers, it was just an up issue of the earlier drawing, with the gates removed and barriers substituted.


Adrian

[Adrian Crafer]

I am hoping to issue an update to the Reading WR drawing index probably late June. I would be interested in titles of GWR/WR signalling drawings numbered 9399 and above, also subset drawings for lower numbers than that but which are not listed in the index as published so far, or you can offer corrections. I am currently working on the section from Drawing No.1 up to where the list currently starts.

So that this forum does not get filled up by lists, please use the private messaging service or my private email address. That also means those who do not want to broadcast their drawing holdings to the world at large, can provide the information in total privacy.

The information I require is:

Full drawing number eg MA1234 the stroke number if any e.g. /1 issue letter e.g. A; Date and Full Title. If it is a GWR issued drawing, the initial letters may be omitted from the number. Please advise if this applies.

The last issue of the list is still available at http://www.signalworks.co.uk/draw1.pdf

Thanks

Adrian Crafer

[mr-cool]

thanks for the update Adrian. The published index really seems out of date. thanks for sharing the drawings....

[Adrian Crafer]

I had promised an update for last month. I have not got as far as I intended however a new version is available, though not quite laid out as I was intending as I wanted to try and get this version available quickly.

It can be download I hope at http://www.signalworks.co.uk/draw1.pdf

Once again if anyone can add any titles, in particularly those of the high numbers or sub drawings anywhere in the list. It all helps to increase the knowledge base.

Thanks

Adrian Crafer

[Adrian Crafer]

It is a while since I updated the Reading Signal Works Drawing Catalogue. The latest version can be found at http://www.signalworks.co.uk/draw1.pdf Some 97 odd pages (I have managed to remove the blank pages this time).


This is still an ongoing project and there is a long way to go before it is finished. Just to make it clear this is not a list of the drawings I hold, though I do hold a large library of several thousand drawings. This catalogue is compiled from the Reading Signal Works drawing Index, volumes 1 & 2 I do not have access to volume 3, my own drawing holding, information from others, and some published information in books and periodicals.

May I first thank the very few people who have contributed to this list, I am somewhat disappointed that I have not had more contributions. The Reading Catalogue only lists in general the main title. If there are sub drawings, they are not listed in volumes one and two, though the existance of the other drawings may be indicated, and that is reflected in the transcribing. You will note a couple of pages are missing from the ledger, and therefore those details may be lost forever, this is shown as missing pages in this catalogue. As I do not have access to volume 3 of the register, I am missing many titles from the later drawing issues, including a lot of the WR MAS information.

So please email me privately if you can add anything to this developing document. I do not publish peoples drawing holding, and any information supplied will be kept confidential as to its source.

Some Notes on Reading Drawings. Originally the drawings were just allocated a sequential number. If extra information was provided the add on drawing was either described as an overlay or allocated a suffix Letter e.g. A - F. There was no indication as to the page size. Later Drawings and reissued old ones aquired a prefix "M" to distinguish the drawing from "E" drawings (electrical) "T" drawings (Telegraph) etc. Later issues acquired a second letter as part of the prefix that indicated the page size, e.g. MA - Foolscap MG - Double Elephant (I think). Sub drawings now were sufixed 1; 2; 3; 100; etc. and a third part of the suffix was added, a further letter. No letter means drawaing as issued, final suffix /A means first amendment (i.e. issue 2) /D means issue 5. eg MB7826/3 A Cover Casting and Machining Detonator Placer (3 Shot - B.H. Rail)

Though a drawing title may say XYZ Level Crossing Gates, a later issue may have had the title amended to XYZ Level Crossing Barriers. The re-use of numbers like this however was not consistently carried out when barriers were installed.

Sorry for any miss spelt Welsh Names, the copperplate hand writing is difficult to read sometimes, and my Signal Box List the S list does not show boxes that existed before the S system was allocated and have changed name or closed.

Adrian Crafer