Signals

THE SIGNAL BOX


Railway signalling discussion

Paint for levers

Technical talk on signalling matters

Paint for levers

Unread postby Roger Bell » Tue Nov 4, 2014 5:24 pm

Can anyone recommend a paint supplier who can offer authentic colours of paint for levers please? I have used Phoenix Precision Paints in the past but can't get hold of them over the last couple od weeks. I do have a copy of the 1948 spec and BS numbers. Any help appreciated. Roger
Roger Bell
User avatar
Roger Bell
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Nov 9, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: North West Norfolk

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby railman » Tue Nov 4, 2014 7:12 pm

If the paint has a BS or RAL number, any decent brand (Dulux , Johnstones or Rustoleum for example..) can be mixed to provide your needs. Even the inevitable B&Q can mix to the colour specs. Sprays might be possible through larger Halfords, who do mix certain transport colours. Failing that, Williamsons (of Ripon I think) still produce paint to BR specifications.

Regards,

Frank N.
railman
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:54 pm

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby John Webb » Tue Nov 4, 2014 8:25 pm

Phoenix Precision Paints are on http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk or phone 01268 730549, if that's any help.

They were at exhibitions on the 11/12th and 18/19th October, and will be at the Warley National Model Railway Exhibition on the 22nd/23rd November.

I regret that I don't know what we used at St Albans South when our frame was being restored - I could have a look tomorrow for you when I'm up there.
John Webb
(Member, St Albans Signalbox Trust)
User avatar
John Webb
Main line box
Main line box
 
Posts: 1816
Joined: Tue Jul 8, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: St Albans, Herts

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby Roger Bell » Wed Nov 5, 2014 7:46 am

Many thanks for both replies. John, it would be good to know what you used as well please.
Roger
Roger Bell
User avatar
Roger Bell
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Nov 9, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: North West Norfolk

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby John Webb » Sat Nov 8, 2014 3:38 pm

Roger Bell wrote:Many thanks for both replies. John, it would be good to know what you used as well please.
Roger

Roger - couldn't find the paint where I thought it was - so at the moment I can't tell you what we used!
John Webb
(Member, St Albans Signalbox Trust)
User avatar
John Webb
Main line box
Main line box
 
Posts: 1816
Joined: Tue Jul 8, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: St Albans, Herts

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby John Webb » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:51 pm

Roger - all tins have been used up but apparently we used Hammerite Red, Black, Blue and White paints* and, because Hammerite don't do yellow, we used a Japlac (?) yellow enamel. But no-one last night could recall the exact details. (The painting was done over 5 years ago now!) Sorry the information is not more detailed!

*'brush-on' paint, NOT their sprays - we've not had much success with their spray cans for some reason, I am told.
John Webb
(Member, St Albans Signalbox Trust)
User avatar
John Webb
Main line box
Main line box
 
Posts: 1816
Joined: Tue Jul 8, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: St Albans, Herts

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby John Hinson » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:42 pm

You can forget Japlac, fantastic paint that it was. They were taken over by Dulux and the range instantly discontinued.

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6797
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby Flipper_T_Rox » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:44 pm

For the GCR lever frames, in recent years at least, we have used Dulux Gloss (over red-oxide primer and an appropriate shade of undercoat) mixed to colours specified in BS381C, these colours being as laid down in various colour schedules produced in the latter days of the Big Four and the BR era.

Yellow BS 381C 356 "Golden Yellow" (white u/c)
Red BS 381C 537 "Signal Red"* (white u/c)
Blue BS 381C 166 "French Blue" (grey u/c)
Brown BS 381C 411 "Middle Brown" (grey u/c)
Green BS 381C 221 "Brilliant Green" (grey u/c)

*Note, that said, we do not actually use "Signal Red" on our frames. Our Engineer agreed the use of the slightly lighter shade "Poppy Red" with the painter. Poppy Red does not appear in BS 381.

All of the above colours are mixable at any half decent Paint outlet, although you will have to give the name as the use of the correct reference number will almost always draw only blank looks these days. Certainly the Dulux system recognises them all, even though they do not all appear in Dulux's colour cards.

Finally, if you're ordering against BR Specifcation 71 numbers then the following should work:

71/91 Red Finishing Paint No. 537
71/93 Blue Finishing Paint No. 166
71/96 Yellow Finishing Paint No. 356
71/101 White Finishing Paint
71/102 Black Finishing Paint
71/108 Brown Finishing Paint No. 411
71/109 Green Finishing Paint No. 221

Regards

Shawn
S&T Installer
Great Central Railway
Flipper_T_Rox
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:02 pm
Location: Swithland Sidings

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby Roger Bell » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:16 pm

Excellent - many thanks Shawn.
Roger Bell
User avatar
Roger Bell
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Nov 9, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: North West Norfolk

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby Chris Osment » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:12 pm

>>>because Hammerite don't do yellow.....

Curious, 'cos I used some a couple of months ago to repaint a Distant finial ! Mind you, I have had the tin for a few years, so perhaps it has been discontinued ? B*****....

>>>Red BS 381C 537 "Signal Red"* (white u/c)...


Likewise, for Signal Red I've been using Crown (? - too cold/wet to go to the shed tonight to check!) RED undercoat.

Why is it that the basic -but surely sensible - concept of colour-matched undercoats seem to have all but disappeared???
Chris Osment
West Country Railway Archives
http://www.railwest.org.uk
User avatar
Chris Osment
Main line box
Main line box
 
Posts: 2242
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:32 am
Location: Somewhere in the West Country

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby John Hinson » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:08 am

Chris Osment wrote:Why is it that the basic -but surely sensible - concept of colour-matched undercoats seem to have all but disappeared???

All decent paint is slowly vanishing - restrictions on content and focus on bulk sales must both play a part.

Personally, I wouldn't use domestic primer, undercoat or topcoat on this kind of thing. There are no doubt many distributors of specialist paint but they aren't always easy to fnd as they are technically trade outlets. My source of choice is Avenue Coatings near Heathrow - they will recommend types of paint for a given purpose and mix shades to a sample if required. Delivery is free within a reasonably large area and they will mail paint greater distances if required.

I get my red undercoat there.

John
Image
‹(•¿•)›
User avatar
John Hinson
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6797
Joined: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:13 pm
Location: at my computer

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby RichardH » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:58 am

"Green BS 381C 221 "Brilliant Green" (grey u/c)"

I had an idea that levers should be painted 218 Grass Green which is slightly lighter than 221 Brilliant Green, which is really ‘Southern Green’.


John Webb wrote:Roger - all tins have been used up but apparently we used Hammerite Red, Black, Blue and White paints* and, because Hammerite don't do yellow, we used a Japlac (?) yellow enamel. But no-one last night could recall the exact details. (The painting was done over 5 years ago now!) Sorry the information is not more detailed!

*'brush-on' paint, NOT their sprays - we've not had much success with their spray cans for some reason, I am told.

Hammerite is not really what I would choose for levers as although it is hard wearing it starts to dry quickly which makes it difficult to get a good finish, but can take several weeks to harden fully. The proper type of paint is ‘Identification’ paint which Williamsons should be able to supply, but unless you have a lot of levers it is probably not worthwhile.

I have found Hammerite spray useful for signal lamp interiors though, and it has the added bonus of sealing slow seeping leaks, but the cans are expensive and don’t always work very reliably.
RichardH
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:43 pm
Location: SR - Central Section

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby Flipper_T_Rox » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:41 am

Chris Osment wrote:
>>>Red BS 381C 537 "Signal Red"* (white u/c)...


Likewise, for Signal Red I've been using Crown (? - too cold/wet to go to the shed tonight to check!) RED undercoat.

Why is it that the basic -but surely sensible - concept of colour-matched undercoats seem to have all but disappeared???


Quite right Chris, and in fairness to our resident frame painter, I do believe that he does actually use red undercoat. The white undercoat in the quote was taken directly from the copy of BR 10 which I had to hand (1973, amended to 1980).

This specifies Spec 70, Item 30 "White undercoating paint" to be used under the red top coat.

The equivalent LNER (1924 & 1936) and GCR (pre 1912) painting specifications we have are explicit that "Where Red is the finishing colour, the preceding coat must be red undercoat in all cases."
S&T Installer
Great Central Railway
Flipper_T_Rox
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:02 pm
Location: Swithland Sidings

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby Flipper_T_Rox » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:24 pm

RichardH wrote:"Green BS 381C 221 "Brilliant Green" (grey u/c)"

I had an idea that levers should be painted 218 Grass Green which is slightly lighter than 221 Brilliant Green, which is really ‘Southern Green’.


As per my post above, I was posting from BR Standard 10, "Painting Schedule: Signal Boxes and Signal Department Equipment" of 1973, which requires the use of "Green Finishing Paint No. 221 71/109" on levers controlling gongs, and asking levers. The extract from Spec 71 at the start of the standard gives the following further information on the paint.

Specification No. 71 (Extract)
...
Item 109 Brilliant green identification colour B.S.C. No. 221 Catalogue number 28/44570
...


The LNER schedules are far less prescriptive, stating only "Green". In the case of the 1936 schedule, the vast majority of colours in the schedule are referred to by their reference numbers in the then-newish (1931) B.S. 381, so it seems to be a conscious decision not to mandate a particular shade for gongs - perhaps to allow for differences in the shades used by the various pre grouping companies.

The GCR schedules make no mention of lever frame colours whatsoever.

I note that the most recent "guidance" I can find for green levers, in the form of the now withdrawn GK/GN0525, still details BS381C Shade 221 "Green" for levers controlling gongs, and asking levers.

GK/GN0677 is the only current document I can find which refers to colours to be used on lever frames, and it makes no mention of green at all. There is guidance on the shade of green to be used for switches on panels, but this is BS381C 220 "Olive Green" !

Both BS381C 218 "Grass Green", and BS381C 221 "Brilliant Green", were included in the original 1931 version of the standard, so are contemporaries.

Of course, this is, so far, only of technical interest to us - we have no green levers :-)
S&T Installer
Great Central Railway
Flipper_T_Rox
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:02 pm
Location: Swithland Sidings

Re: Paint for levers

Unread postby Flipper_T_Rox » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:58 pm

Going back slightly further, in January 1951 The Railway Executive promulgated instructions that standard colouring for lever frames was to be introduced throughout British Railways. The section dealing with the particular shades to be used states:

Colours to be in accordance with B.S. 381C - 1948 as follows:-
RED No. 537, YELLOW No. 356, GREEN No. 221, BLUE No. 166, BROWN No. 411, GREY No. 632.
S&T Installer
Great Central Railway
Flipper_T_Rox
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:02 pm
Location: Swithland Sidings

Next

Return to S&T Department

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests