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LMS hump yard signal

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LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby stevej » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:46 am

G'day,

I have chanced upon a B&W low quality image of a BR hump yard signal in a 1960s era Aussie rail magazine. I am eager to discover if any photos are available of this type of signal. The signal featuring a circular head with 8 lamps, in a pseudo Pennsylvania RR position light type.

I have discovered that the LMS introduced a hump yard signal in 1936, the first being at Toton, but I have not managed to find any photos.

This hump yard signal may be the origin for the NSWR subsidiary turnout indication (scattered aces).

I am hoping that somebody can supply some information.

Thanks,
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby John Webb » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:56 am

Have a look at http://www.railsigns.uk/sect10page1/sect10page1.html which describes the Toton signals in some detail, plus other hump signals - note there are two pages.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:30 am

There are still some of these around, because they were also used at loading and unloading bunkers for things like road stone and coal. There nearest to St Albans (for John's interest) were (I say were because I didn't see them yesterday as I came up the MML) at Radlett road stone depot.
Last edited by Fast Line Floyd on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby John Webb » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:11 pm

As far as I am aware they are still there - but when set up in the late 1970s, the company was compelled to set up hedges etc to screen the site from view - in the 40 or so years they have been very successful as far as local roads are concerned. So it's not easy to check without trespassing.

There's a picture of a Toton signal (Plate 34, page 28) in David Allen and C J Woolstenholmes' "A pictorial survey of London Midland Signalling" (OPC, 1996, ISBN 0 86093 523 X).
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby S&TEngineer » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:11 pm

There are couple existing at Theale Sidings (West of Reading): http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/03/ ... 226036.jpg and there were some at Crewe: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/s ... CF5679.jpg but these are not the original MV-GRS type you are looking for.

Somewhere I have a 1939 MV-GRS brochure concerning the LMS Down Marshalling Hump Yard at Toton. When I find it I will post up some extracts.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby StevieG » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:20 pm

There were one or two somewhere in the Parkeston Quay / Harwich Town sidings but don't know their type and have never knowingly seen a photo.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby stevej » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:01 am

Thanks all for the responses. I have grabbed the info and photos and will examine them in detail. I am wondering if the signal was an adaptation of the Pennsylvania RR position light type, possibly introduced by the Union Signal Co. There is an equivalent DB signal in Germany. But, it employs a row of five lamps for a total of 17 in the head. The NSWR subsidiary turnout indication (scattered aces) does not feature the horizontal or vertical lamps in the head, only the row of three, slanted to indicate the turnout direction. Steve.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby S&TEngineer » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:12 am

You can find the TOTON documents and photographs I mentioned in an earlier post, here:

http://cbrailways.co.uk/PhotoAlbumsPro/Album_otc3rz

If anybody would like a higher resolution copy them please send me a PM with an email address.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby scarpa » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:06 pm

There are 3 of these signals at Hayes aggregate siding alongside the Up relief in the area of the flyover to Heathrow airport. Another one of these signals exists on the Colnbrooke branch from West Drayton at the end of branch currently in use. I will check it out. I have a feeling this is a homemade type of signal. There were some at the aggregate yard Acton in rear of the loco stabling sidings. I don't know if they are still in situ.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby stevej » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:13 am

Thanks S&T and scarpa. I have taken a look at the Toton details from the link. Very interesting. The Toton signal shows a main head above the circular head. This replicates our NSWR scattered aces situation. The poor quality image in the Aussie mag shows the Hump yard signal with the circular head at the top with a single lamp head below plus a position light subsidiary head below that, another single lamp head is positioned to the right hand side on a bracket. The image is part of an ad by AEI-GRS company. NO mention of the actual signal location, except being part of the BR West region. The actual Toton signal does offer more hope of such a design being a possible origin concept for the NSWR subsidiary turnout indication design. Steve.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby S&TEngineer » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:21 am

The AEI-GRS Installation would be the BR Western Region Margam Marshalling Yard as seen in this 1961 film. The signal you have referred to can been seen at about 10mins into the film but its worth watching the whole thing which is a facinating glimpse into a world long gone: http://player.bfi.org.uk/film/watch-mar ... trol-1961/
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby stevej » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:55 am

Gday S&T, Thanks for the video clip link. Unfortunately, I cannot view this video as it is not approved for access or viewing in Australia. I have found either an identical or similar video clip featuring Margam Marshalling yard at You Tube. I have managed to snavel this video clip. There is a brief view of the signal which features the circular head at the top of the post. It is interesting that the indication is also displayed in the shunt loco cab. I will review the video clip in detail at home having saved it to my usb stick. The www at the library is very slow today. Four wheeler wagons were prolific here in NSW until banned from the main line in the early 1970s. We also ran non-air brake rakes of four wheeler coal hoppers on dedicated routes. Yes, something from the long gone past. Steve.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby Pete2320 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:42 pm

stevej wrote:Thanks all for the responses. I have grabbed the info and photos and will examine them in detail. I am wondering if the signal was an adaptation of the Pennsylvania RR position light type, possibly introduced by the Union Signal Co. There is an equivalent DB signal in Germany. But, it employs a row of five lamps for a total of 17 in the head. The NSWR subsidiary turnout indication (scattered aces) does not feature the horizontal or vertical lamps in the head, only the row of three, slanted to indicate the turnout direction. Steve.

An important difference between the Pennsylvania RR signals and the British ones is that the PR ones are running signals and as such have full size lamps whereas the British ones use much smaller lamps, often the same lamp units as used in position light shunting signals. As such the whole signal head is proportionally smaller.
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby S&TEngineer » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:28 pm

Pete2320 wrote:
stevej wrote:Thanks all for the responses. I have grabbed the info and photos and will examine them in detail. I am wondering if the signal was an adaptation of the Pennsylvania RR position light type, possibly introduced by the Union Signal Co. There is an equivalent DB signal in Germany. But, it employs a row of five lamps for a total of 17 in the head. The NSWR subsidiary turnout indication (scattered aces) does not feature the horizontal or vertical lamps in the head, only the row of three, slanted to indicate the turnout direction. Steve.

An important difference between the Pennsylvania RR signals and the British ones is that the PR ones are running signals and as such have full size lamps whereas the British ones use much smaller lamps, often the same lamp units as used in position light shunting signals. As such the whole signal head is proportionally smaller.

Pete, you need to be careful there. The original MV-GRS (and later AEI-GRS) lamps and heads were much bigger than the more recent (ML/Westinghouse?) ones that exist today. The same type of larger lamp was used on the original AEI-GRS Junction Indicators and shunt signals installed at Watford and Dartford (and a few other places as well).
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Re: LMS hump yard signal

Unread postby Mike Stone » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:53 pm

S&TEngineer wrote:There are couple existing at Theale Sidings (West of Reading): http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/03/ ... 226036.jpg and there were some at Crewe: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/s ... CF5679.jpg but these are not the original MV-GRS type you are looking for.

Somewhere I have a 1939 MV-GRS brochure concerning the LMS Down Marshalling Hump Yard at Toton. When I find it I will post up some extracts.


The one identified as Crewe is actually at Bescot, (DT38) and is still there - if it works I would like to know how it is controlled. There haven't been any 08s at Crewe Basford Hall for many years and the EWS liveried mk.2s were at Bescot too.
';
https://www.flickr.com/photos/50619197@ ... otostream/
;
shows other Bescot ones. At some point DT44 seems to have acquired a fixed red or a searchlight compared to the yellow peril 1211G, presumably when the engine release line became reception siding 5.
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