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intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Signalling outside the UK (but including Northern Ireland), past, present and future

Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby MRFS » Wed Mar 2, 2011 7:49 pm

thelineman wrote:
MRFS wrote:in this case the person operating the staff instrument at John Darling would telephone Redhead for a release, and Redhead would contact Belmont. One galvo would flick first, then when Belmont gave a release then other galvo would flick releasing the lock in the instrument. [/size]


I you look at the digrams, the telephone has to be connected, but there is not block bell connected to the intermediate instrument.


Yes - fascinating set of diagrams, thank you for those. 57B shews the intermediate instrument - is 'bobinas compound del rotor de enganche del la guillotina the compound lock (bobinas compound) on the commutator (rotor) - what's 'guillotina' in this sense - cutting off the current? I know that 'cortacorriente' is a switch.

The intermediate works earth and line to 57C and twin line to 57A with telephone across both line wires; so the intermediate (57B) would ring up one end (57A) and then 57A would ring 57C - I'm interested by the campanilla - the extension bells I wonder if they were AC operated or tremblers off the DC?

The other diagram is for central battery working, I think (instead of magneto ringing).
ND: Why is there a door handle on the inside of my airing cupboard?
MF: Because it's the fire exit from Narnia.

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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby thelineman » Wed Mar 2, 2011 8:34 pm

MRFS wrote:
thelineman wrote:
MRFS wrote: what's 'guillotina' in this sense - cutting off the current? I know that 'cortacorriente' is a switch.

The intermediate works earth and line to 57C and twin line to 57A with telephone across both line wires; so the intermediate (57B) would ring up one end (57A) and then 57A would ring 57C - I'm interested by the campanilla - the extension bells I wonder if they were AC operated or tremblers off the DC? (instead of magneto ringing).


I don´t know what guillotina is. "Cortacorriente" is a switch to interrupt current from line to indicate the signalman that a token has been already withdrawn.
The "campanilla" is a block bell. I think that the extension bells are AC operated and are sensible to the magneto inside the intermediate telephone.
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby MRFS » Wed Mar 2, 2011 8:46 pm

Were F type telephones magneto ringing then - or was magneto ringing standard for telephones?
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MF: Because it's the fire exit from Narnia.

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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby thelineman » Thu Mar 3, 2011 12:25 am

Any idea of what an F type telephone is??
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby MRFS » Thu Mar 3, 2011 12:57 am

Not offhand no - my RSCo catalogues are in the country library - when next I go I'll have a look to see if they mention anything.
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby David Holden » Thu Mar 3, 2011 9:33 am

From a RSCO catalogue
Image
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby Andrew Waugh » Thu Mar 3, 2011 11:24 am

I would agree with MRFS that 57A and 57C are the terminal staff instruments, and 57B is the intermediate staff instrument.

I have a Victorian wiring diagram for intermediate staff instruments using magneto generators, and it, too, shows two line wires (i.e. metallic return) between one terminal instrument and the intermediate, and one line wire (i.e. eath return) between the intermediate and the second terminal instrument.

This is not related to the use of telephones over the line wires - the VR diagram has an independent telephone between one end and the intermediate.

I would suspect that the real issue is that there is some chance of irregular operation of the through section if both terminal instruments were operated using earth return.

Incidentally, the VR circuits for intermediate staff instruments using batteries show metallic return all the way through from A to C.

A final note on the connections inside the magneto generator (which are not shown on 57A, B, or C). When the bell key in the magie is NOT pressed, the B and + terminals are connected (i.e. line current goes to the bell or the lock). When the bell key in the magie is pressed (and the handle cranked), the - and + terminals are connected to send current to line.
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby MRFS » Thu Mar 3, 2011 12:25 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but David Holden's circuit diagram looks as if it is for an 'M' pattern instrument and thelineman's looks as if it is from an 'S' pattern instrument. All my RSCo catalogues are in the 'country library', so I can't check - if all works out they'll move into the new 'city library'. :lol:
ND: Why is there a door handle on the inside of my airing cupboard?
MF: Because it's the fire exit from Narnia.

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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby David Holden » Thu Mar 3, 2011 2:59 pm

The circuit I posted is from the 'M' section of the catalogue, there is not one in the 'S' section of my catalogue.
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby thelineman » Sat Mar 5, 2011 12:32 am

David Holden´s diagram looks like a modified M type instrument, similar to the one in th photo of Boston Lodge.
Notice that there´s not a two needle galvanometer, there are two sole needle galvanometers.
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby thelineman » Sat Mar 5, 2011 12:35 am

Also notice that 57B (intermediate) has an extra lever in the switchboard
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby MRFS » Sat Mar 5, 2011 1:56 am

thelineman wrote:David Holden´s diagram looks like a modified M type instrument, similar to the one in th photo of Boston Lodge.
Notice that there´s not a two needle galvanometer, there are two sole needle galvanometers.


Indeed - I'm pretty sure that there wasn't an intermediate when those instruments left the Talyllyn (history is slighly confused at the order of things) - but the most likely thing is that Fazakerley were given an 'M' pattern terminal and asked to adjust it to an intermediate - so you are correct that it was/is a modified 'M' but unlike Rhiw Goch it was done by the manufacturers.

Does anyone have any pictures of Dduallt intermediate? Dduallt signalbox is another question altogether with 'No 14 Down Talyllyn Working and Out'... ;)
ND: Why is there a door handle on the inside of my airing cupboard?
MF: Because it's the fire exit from Narnia.

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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby stevej » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:07 am

G'day Thelineman and others,
I realize that this is an older thread, but I have only recently joined the forum.
I do have a photo of an NSWR intermediate ETS instrument, type B.
This was located at Charbon colliery loader loop on the Mudgee branch north of Lithgow in NSW.
The section being Clandulla to Kandos Works, with the intermediate instrument for Charbon.
This section has now been closed.
During operation when I was working trains there, no signalmen or station staff existed at the locations.
The instruments were operated automatically.
Depress the plunger, or in the case of Charbon, press the button.
If no other staff had been removed from either instrument, as indicated by the galvanometer needles, then a staff could be removed.
For Charbon this was a key staff, required to unlock the points ground frame at Charbon Junction.
Previously, an ETS drawer lock was located at Charbon Junction in which the normal ets staff was inserted to access the annet key.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=4509980
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby Wilkinstown » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:52 am

Did No 40 ever turn up !
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Re: intermediate Miniature Staff instrument

Unread postby stevej » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:43 am

G'day Wilkinstown,

Ah, amazing how many people are aware of some of the ETS incidents out along the Mudgee branch. I do remember that a peg went missing, but didn't remember the number of it. It would be interesting to know if that peg was ordinary or key staff type.

I presume that the incident occurred after Charbon Junction was converted from Drawer Lock to key staff operation. Worse still, the entire Clandulla ETS instrument went missing one time.

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