Signals

THE SIGNAL BOX


Railway signalling discussion

My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for help

Signalling outside the UK (but including Northern Ireland), past, present and future

My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for help

Unread postby hmmueller » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:00 pm

Hi all -

A few days ago I started a probably very weird project: I translate my (still growing) website of mostly Austrian interlockings into English: http://interlockings.blogspot.com.

Now, why would I do this? In my experience, the "German" world of interlocking and the "English" world of interlocking remained separate for more than 100 years. Each "side" had their own "obvious" solutions to the same problems. When one looks at web pages that explain interlocking principles today, this has not changed much. For example, the website Principles of interlocking explains only tappet locking (a form of "cascading locking" <-- is this the right term? at least that's what we call it in German), but totally ignores route locking. On the other hand, this German explanation implicitly assumes that one has to have route levers ... So, my noble goal is to educate both sides; and I start by translating my current and future texts about Austrian (and a few other) signal boxes and interlocking machines to English.

How many people will be interested in this? There are, I assume, about 55 people in all of Germany and Austria and Switzerland who seem to be interested in interlocking machines at all; and there are maybe 122 in Great Britain. Those being interested in machinery from the other side of the divide may make up maybe 2% of all - so my great undertaking will draw around 2 readers.

But so what? It's a hobby!

Yet ... I need your help!: My English is not perfect; my technical English is less than perfect; and my interlocking English is very imperfect. So if one of you 2 interested readers would take a look at my English website and give me some feedback, I'd be very happy! Especially,

  • are the terms in dictionary correct? (and what is the British term for "running a switch"?)
  • do the terms "pin", "notch", "chain wheel"/"lever wheel" make sense as I use them?

As a reward, I can, at this time, only give you two pictures of the Dover Priory signal box in this (still German-only) posting with images from 1978. But in the next years, I'll add a few pictures of signal boxes from New Zealand; and maybe also Italy and Sweden; and - at least I plan it - a "general explanation of mechanical interlockings that transcends that big divide" ...
==== Austrian signal boxes and interlockings (German and English), with some looks beyond ====
User avatar
hmmueller
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:24 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby Danny252 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:32 pm

Finding information (in English, anyway) about foreign interlocking systems is very difficult - so I would indeed be interested in reading! Sadly, my German is very basic, and my knowledge of technical terms for interlocking isn't too much better...

Still, a couple for the dictionary:
"Auffahren einer Weiche/running a switch" - "Running through points" would be how I'd put it, i.e. "the train ran through the points". You can also say "the train trailed the points", though that doesn't always imply damage (some points are designed to be "trailable"). To explain the second part of that, points can either be in the "facing direction" (a train can go left or right at them) or the "trailing direction". Obviously, what is a facing point for one train will be a trailing point for a train going the opposite direction. Perhaps worth putting a translation of those terms?

Edit: Having seen how you use the term in your writing, "trailing the points" is what you want.

On your interlocking plan (http://www.haraldmmueller.de/eb/12SA-Ve ... anEngl.pdf), are the titles for the "right" routes reversed? It seems like the bottom ones should be "from Right", as they have the main/diverging routes for signal A.
Danny252
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 695
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:39 pm
Location: As close to the levers as they'll let me be

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby hmmueller » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:55 pm

Thank you very much for the reply!

I have entered "running through points" in my dictionary (I even found a nice text using this term here (under 8-10-1926): http://www.brucehunt.co.uk/Tender%20at%20Callington.html; the American term is used in this U.S. forum posting: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46808.

... some points are designed to be "trailable"
Almost all, in Austria - I see that I must explain this somewhen.

... "facing direction" ... "trailing direction" ... Perhaps worth putting a translation of those terms?
I added them.

Edit: Having seen how you use the term in your writing, "trailing the points" is what you want.
So my text
When an engine runs the points from the trailing end while they are in the wrong position, the chain wheel is turned forcefully, while the lever wheel remains locked by the interlocking. The spring coupling (or "clutch") allows this without destroying the lever frame or the points. / Why is this necessary? English points cannot be run without destroying them.
should rather be
When an engine trails the points, the chain wheel is turned forcefully, while the lever wheel remains locked by the interlocking. The spring coupling (or "clutch") allows this without destroying the lever frame or the points. / Why is this necessary? English points cannot be run without destroying them.
you mean?

On your interlocking plan (http://www.haraldmmueller.de/eb/12SA-Ve ... anEngl.pdf), are the titles for the "right" routes reversed? It seems like the bottom ones should be "from Right", as they have the main/diverging routes for signal A.
Good proofreading, thank you! - I corrected it.

I'll slowly continue with texts (rather soon, a few German interlockings on the Munich-Mühldorf line); and maybe I find time for some first more fundamental texts explaining how different types of interlockings solve the (more or less) same basic problems.
==== Austrian signal boxes and interlockings (German and English), with some looks beyond ====
User avatar
hmmueller
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:24 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby JRB » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:08 pm

I think 'damaging'' would be better than 'destroying', it is somewhat less drastic.

You are doing a good job.
JRB
Double-manned box
Double-manned box
 
Posts: 3216
Joined: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:12 pm
Location: GWR

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby Danny252 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:26 pm

hmmueller wrote:
Edit: Having seen how you use the term in your writing, "trailing the points" is what you want.
So my text
When an engine runs the points from the trailing end while they are in the wrong position, the chain wheel is turned forcefully, while the lever wheel remains locked by the interlocking. The spring coupling (or "clutch") allows this without destroying the lever frame or the points. / Why is this necessary? English points cannot be run without destroying them.
should rather be
When an engine trails the points, the chain wheel is turned forcefully, while the lever wheel remains locked by the interlocking. The spring coupling (or "clutch") allows this without destroying the lever frame or the points. / Why is this necessary? English points cannot be run without destroying them.
you mean?


As JRB said, damaging is probably a better word, but yes, the changed wording makes the meaning clearer (unsurprisingly, that's the sentence I read which helped me work out your meaning!).

Would it be possible to add a diagram with the signals and points marked/numbered for your frame? Whilst the one you link is of some help, there are some features I'm not sure of - was there any indication of main/diverging route to the driver, and were different signals supplied for the main and loop lines controlled by the same lever (B/C)?
Danny252
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 695
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:39 pm
Location: As close to the levers as they'll let me be

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby hmmueller » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:55 pm

Thanks to you both - its "damaging" now.
And I'll add a schematic track plan soon - of course, I should have done that much earlier!
==== Austrian signal boxes and interlockings (German and English), with some looks beyond ====
User avatar
hmmueller
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:24 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby Frank » Thu Mar 7, 2013 8:05 am

Hello hmmueller,


some information too..............

At First,Austria Signalling differences from the other german spoeaking countrys,because of historical facts.

Until 1910 in Austria the Trains run on the left side and on some Lines they do it until now.

Also the former K.u.K. countrys Bohemia,Hungaria had influence into signalling.


Trailable Points are devbeloped by Bavarian Engineers in the 1890th to protect the Points from beeing damaged by trailing Locos or Wagons.
Corect it is the trailable locking of the Blades,witch you can see here in flesh
http://www.drahtkupplung.de/0_Weichen/0_Teile/WT27.html

Some abbreviations.........

Spitz befahren = Facing Point

Stumpf befahren = trailing Point

anliegende Zunge = close -fitting Blade

abliegende Zunge = open Blade


Trailable Points where common in D+A until the upcoming of High Speed Trains.For them Points where locked with extra Lock bars (Riegelverschluß).
Look here:
http://www.tkgftgleistechnik.de/en/rail ... eiche.html

The maximum Speed for trailing without damaging the Point is 40 Km/h.

Please keep in mind that it gives also a special Art of Points ---> resetting trailable points (Rückfallweichen) that were build special for trailing.
see here:
http://nimga.de/f/rbOwZ.jpg

Under the counterbalance you could see a Hydraulic Pressure Cylinder witch moves the Blades back after Trailing.
User avatar
Frank
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Dortmund-Rhine Westphalia- Germany

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby Andrew Waugh » Fri Mar 8, 2013 10:16 pm

Very interesting site Harald. I think in your estimate of two readers, you forgot about people who are neither in the UK or Austria!

One comment on the dictionary. You define 'Spitzenverschluss' as 'Blade locks'. My understanding is that the traditional English translation of this would be 'claw lock', after the most common form of these locks. I'm a bit cautious about pushing this translation. I am aware that some forms of these locks were NOT of the claw lock form. I am also aware that the term 'claw lock' is becoming more common in English now, but specifically to refer to a point locking mechanism where the open blade is wedged open as well as the closed blade is held against the stock rail.

You might be interested in the application of German double wire technology to British style signalling. Around 1920, the UK signalling contractor Westinghouse adapted double wire technology to British conditions. This technology was (and is) widely used in the British colonies, and a few installations were made in Australia. Here is a page describing the technology in Victoria: http://www.vrhistory.com/Articles/Doubl ... leWire.htm You will notice the main difference is the interlocking is conventional (for the UK) tappet without route levers, and the points are non-trailable with conventional FPLs. You will also note that I don't credit the German origin of the technology - this was written in the days before I gained a closer, personal, relation to Germany and my knowledge of German signalling was almost non-existent.

You have an interesting collection of links. Are you aware of the German signalling texts that can be found on the Internet Archive?

Anyway, great site.
Andrew Waugh
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:34 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby Frank » Sat Mar 9, 2013 8:41 am

Hello Andrew,

some timeline to Signalling in the German speaking countrys for the Time 1850 until 1920.

At first there where Equipment from british Manufactory Saxby&Farmer.But of the climate and different handling of shunting there was then a seperate development in the Country Prussia,Bohemia,Austria,Bavaria and Wurtemberg.
From 1890 until 1920 more then 40 Manufactory are building Lever Frames and Signals and so on until the Standardisation of the mechanical
Lever Frames as Type "Einheit" in 1920 throught the Reichseisenbahnen in Germany.In Austria it was the Type "5007" from 1909 on.
A short Overview you can get here:
http://www.stellwerke.de/formen/seite2_2.html

Here some of the Manufactorys
http://www.berliner-stellwerke.de/eisen ... alten.html
User avatar
Frank
Rest-day relief
Rest-day relief
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Dortmund-Rhine Westphalia- Germany

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby hmmueller » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:49 am

Frank wrote:Hello hmmueller,

some information too..............

At First,Austria Signalling differences from the other german spoeaking countrys,because of historical facts.

Until 1910 in Austria the Trains run on the left side and on some Lines they do it until now.

Also the former K.u.K. countrys Bohemia,Hungaria had influence into signalling.


Besten Dank für ein paar solche Hinweise - wenn ich Zeit habe, muss ich mein österreichisches Blog http://stellwerke.blogspot.co.at einmal mit solchen historischen Infos aufpeppen!
Many thanks for these historical hints - wenn I find time, I'll add such information to my Austrian blog at http://stellwerke.blogspot.co.at!

Frank wrote:anliegende Zunge = close-fitting blade

abliegende Zunge = open blade


Are these terms actually common English terms? "open blade" sounds ok for me, but "close-fitting blade", in my understanding, is a blade that , in general, fits closely - but that doesn't mean that it is now the blade that touches the stock rail. "Methinks" that there must be another term ...

Frank wrote:Trailable Points where common in D+A until the upcoming of High Speed Trains.For them Points where locked with extra Lock bars (Riegelverschluß).

In Austria, "FPLs" (Riegel) have been required for a century or more on all facing points travelled with 60kph or more - I would not call that "high speed trains" :D


In my (personal) opinion, the ThyssenKrupp GfT Gleistechnik "Railway Track Manual" is written in - let's say - not too good English. To me, it seems as if most of it was translated word by word from German. So I hesitate to use it as a source of translations. The "right thing", of course, would be UIC's official "terminology database"; the printed version is 110 EUR (the CD is 290 EUR!) - for my small hobby blog, I'm not yet ready to spend this amount (next Christmas? Birthday? ... we'll see ...)

Please keep in mind that it gives also a special Art of Points ---> resetting trailable points (Rückfallweichen) that were build special for trailing.
see here:
http://nimga.de/f/rbOwZ.jpg

Under the counterbalance you could see a Hydraulic Pressure Cylinder witch moves the Blades back after Trailing.


Mhm - as a preview of a half-finished posting about points at a little station in Lower Austria, here is what happens when a train runs such points.

Regards & thanks for comments!
Harald

P.S. (Tongue in cheek:) I like your typo "Art of Points" - are we getting another art, after The Art of Organ Building and The Art of Computer Programming (which I can both highly recommend!)?
Last edited by hmmueller on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
==== Austrian signal boxes and interlockings (German and English), with some looks beyond ====
User avatar
hmmueller
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:24 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby hmmueller » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:36 am

Andrew Waugh wrote:Very interesting site Harald. I think in your estimate of two readers, you forgot about people who are neither in the UK or Austria!

I plead guilty of wrong mathematics, discrimination, and gross underestimation! Thanks for setting that straight (I should have known - when my wife and I got married, for our honeymoon we flew to New Zealand, and deep in my boxes, there are a few pictures of the electro-mechanical frame from Pukekohe and the lever frame in Greymouth. But up to now, this has been my only trip to "down under", so I have not yet had the pleasure of visiting Australia).

Andrew Waugh wrote:One comment on the dictionary. You define 'Spitzenverschluss' as 'Blade locks'. My understanding is that the traditional English translation of this would be 'claw lock', after the most common form of these locks. I'm a bit cautious about pushing this translation. I am aware that some forms of these locks were NOT of the claw lock form.

"Claw" lock, to me, seems to limit this term to the sort of locks that I describe in this posting about the "Hakenverschluss" (in German - but maybe some of the videos of my bricolage can probably also be understood directly).

Andrew Waugh wrote:I am also aware that the term 'claw lock' is becoming more common in English now, but specifically to refer to a point locking mechanism where the open blade is wedged open as well as the closed blade is held against the stock rail.

Does that mean that the term is becoming more common (really? aren't such locks virtually absent from UK, North American, Australian, NZ usage?); or that this sort of locks that locks the closed blade directly to the stock rail become more common - which would also surprise me, because here in Germany and Austria, we finally seem to move away from the blade locks that are mounted directly to blade and stock rails; and start to use the "inner blade locks" (inside the drive mechanism) that have been shunned by the authorities up to now.

(BTW, your statement answers my question from my previous posting about the term for the blade that sits tightly to the stock rail: It is simply "closed blade".)

Andrew Waugh wrote:You might be interested in the application of German double wire technology to British style signalling. Around 1920, the UK signalling contractor Westinghouse adapted double wire technology to British conditions. This technology was (and is) widely used in the British colonies, and a few installations were made in Australia. Here is a page describing the technology in Victoria: http://www.vrhistory.com/Articles/Doubl ... leWire.htm You will notice the main difference is the interlocking is conventional (for the UK) tappet without route levers, and the points are non-trailable with conventional FPLs. You will also note that I don't credit the German origin of the technology - this was written in the days before I gained a closer, personal, relation to Germany and my knowledge of German signalling was almost non-existent.


Now this is an interesting combination of technologies! The frame looks almost like my Austrian 12SA (with the levers mounted from above), and also the chains around the wheels are very "Austrian" (the Germans used and use spun cables) but the upwards normal position is very "German" (but probably more influenced by the English practice where the normal position is "away from the signalman"). The signal mechanism is decidedly "German" (with the groove to move the arm lever), whereas the point mechanism looks very "Austrian" (see the picture in this posting from a station in Vienna in 1986).

Andrew Waugh wrote:Are you aware of the German signalling texts that can be found on the Internet Archive?

Not yet, actually - but I'll spend a few hours there somewhen to find interesting links - do you have a few that get me started?

Regards
Harald
==== Austrian signal boxes and interlockings (German and English), with some looks beyond ====
User avatar
hmmueller
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:24 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:54 am

Harald,

Thank you for an excelent explanation of Germanic branch of this subject, I look forward to much more in the future (no pressure intended).

As an Englishman who is about to start to building a house in Austria and is just starting to learn the language, getting a tax bill and having to decipher it was hard work, your English is far better than Mein Deutsch.

Graham
Graham
User avatar
Fast Line Floyd
Main line box
Main line box
 
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 11:42 am
Location: Raunds

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby hmmueller » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:06 pm

Glad that you like the blog! - it will grow ...

And good luck with that house you are "about to start to build" - sounds like some way you still have to go ... Where will it be located?

Regards
Harald
==== Austrian signal boxes and interlockings (German and English), with some looks beyond ====
User avatar
hmmueller
Crossing box
Crossing box
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:24 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby Andrew Waugh » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:34 am

hmmueller wrote:
Andrew Waugh wrote:One comment on the dictionary. You define 'Spitzenverschluss' as 'Blade locks'. My understanding is that the traditional English translation of this would be 'claw lock', after the most common form of these locks. I'm a bit cautious about pushing this translation. I am aware that some forms of these locks were NOT of the claw lock form.

"Claw" lock, to me, seems to limit this term to the sort of locks that I describe in this posting about the "Hakenverschluss" (in German - but maybe some of the videos of my bricolage can probably also be understood directly).


Sorry, I mis-remembered an article by T.S. Lascelles on 'Railway Signalling in Germany' in the 1926 (Part 2) IRSE Proceedings. He called them facing point locks, and distinguished 'hook-locks' from the 'Bruchsal linkage lock'. It would be worth finding this article, as Lascelles was a very well respected British signalling engineer and would have used the correct language at the time. The IRSE Proceedings are digitised and can be downloaded, but I don't have the URL...

hmmueller wrote:
Andrew Waugh wrote:I am also aware that the term 'claw lock' is becoming more common in English now, but specifically to refer to a point locking mechanism where the open blade is wedged open as well as the closed blade is held against the stock rail.

Does that mean that the term is becoming more common (really? aren't such locks virtually absent from UK, North American, Australian, NZ usage?); or that this sort of locks that locks the closed blade directly to the stock rail become more common - which would also surprise me, because here in Germany and Austria, we finally seem to move away from the blade locks that are mounted directly to blade and stock rails; and start to use the "inner blade locks" (inside the drive mechanism) that have been shunned by the authorities up to now.


This is a complex area, and I'm likely to tread on a British toes!

Certainly 'claw' locks are installed in Australia, particularly in NSW. See http://extranet.artc.com.au/docs/eng/si ... /SMS05.pdf and http://engineering.railcorp.nsw.gov.au/ ... rnouts.PDF (and a number of similar documents - do a google search on 'claw lock australia').

The IRSE publication 'European Railway Signalling' distinguishes 'Clamp locking with horizontal hooks' (as used in Belgium), and 'Claw Locking' (used by OBB, SBB, DB AG, RENFE, & CFL) which wedge the open blade as well as lock the closed blade. These are the same as the 'claw locks' mentioned above.

There is also the British 'clamp lock' (e.g. http://www.pthydraulics.com.au/rail/pdf/clamplock.pdf). This is really an adaption of the European clamp/claw lock, but with detector switches built into the lock. (These, incidentally, are widely used in the metropolitan area of Melbourne.)

hmmueller wrote:
Andrew Waugh wrote:Are you aware of the German signalling texts that can be found on the Internet Archive?

Not yet, actually - but I'll spend a few hours there somewhen to find interesting links - do you have a few that get me started?


The main one I've found are:

Die Sicherungswerke im Eisenbahnbetriebe by Ernst Schubert (1903) (plus at least one earlier edition) This is an excellent book!

Die Sicherungs-anlagen der Wiener Stadtbahn by Hugo Koestler (1903)

Kommentar zur neuen Signalordnung by Ludwick Freund (1904)

Die Selbsttaetige Signalanlage der Berliner Hoch- und Untergrundbahn by Gustav Kemmann (1921)

Verleichende Studien uber Eisenbahn-Signalwesen by G Kecker (1883)

There are probably others, but it is difficult to search the internet archive for non-English language books!
Andrew Waugh
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:34 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: My website of Austrian interlockings, plus a call for he

Unread postby Stevoid » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:55 pm

The 1926 IRSE proceedings can be found here.
Stevoid
Branch line box
Branch line box
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:05 pm

Next

Return to Signalling - overseas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests