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Electric Signal Reverser

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Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby El Porteño » Sat Mar 8, 2014 5:53 pm

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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby Richard Pike » Sat Mar 8, 2014 6:12 pm

It looks like a circuit controller to me. Something similar here..

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4406
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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Sat Mar 8, 2014 8:24 pm

The wooden box below it is presumably a battery box? That could be to feed the circuit controller or conceivably for an electric signal lamp (if indeed there is a lamp there at all).

There is a cable running upwards from this box, and it looks about the right length to reach the device in question, but does not appear to be connected to it - on the second photo it looks as though it has been yanked out of whatever it belongs to, nor can I see any cable from the circuit controller to anywhere, although of course it could be hidden round the back.
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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby Pete2320 » Sun Mar 9, 2014 2:50 pm

Certainly a circuit controller. Very like Midland Railway one.

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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby El Porteño » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:49 pm

Dear friends Richard, Pete and Mike:
Certainly is a circuit controller, it is a device used by the B A Southern R, I could find some other examples!
Many thanks for your comments! Regards, Pablo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44833183@N ... hotostream
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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby stevej » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:13 am

G'day El Porteno and others,

Here in NSW we did have a number of track controlled lower quadrant semaphores. There were at least four in Bathurst, plus six (I think) in Wallerawang Junction. I also encountered them at other locations.

The box attached to the post just below the signal blade being the mechanism to return the signal to stop when the train hit the track circuit. These signals were usually employed where the track sections between signal boxes were short (the normal rule for lower quadrant semaphores being to remain clear until the passage of the guards van), but this was not possible where the track sections were short.

I have some photos. The first showing the Demondrille UP Starter.
http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/aussi ... sort=3&o=2

Next Wallerawang West UP starter, which also acted as Wallerawang East UP Accept.
http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/aussi ... sort=3&o=1

Finally, the Goobang East UP Sidings Starter, the East UP Main starter being an upper quadrant.
http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/aussi ... sort=3&o=0

Sadly these signals have long gone to history.

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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby John Webb » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:48 am

Here's a view of a 'circuit controller' fitted to one of our signals at St Albans South:
Image

Slightly more distant view showing how it's worked directly by the signal arm:
Image

And the repeater it works inside the box:
Image
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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby stevej » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:37 am

G'day John,
Thanks for the images.
I now think that I have confused the issue from the original thread posting.
I had thought that the referred to signal reverser was for track circuited control to return the signal to stop in lieu of the signal box frame lever.
I am now getting the impression that it is to provide electric contact circuits to the repeater indication in the signal box.
I am guessing from the images that the particular semaphore is a lower quadrant.
I will now need to google for any working diagram details for our NSWR track circuited lower quads to ascertain just what was inside the box attached.
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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby John Webb » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:13 am

stevej wrote:G'day John,
Thanks for the images.
I now think that I have confused the issue from the original thread posting.
I had thought that the referred to signal reverser was for track circuited control to return the signal to stop in lieu of the signal box frame lever.
I am now getting the impression that it is to provide electric contact circuits to the repeater indication in the signal box.
I am guessing from the images that the particular semaphore is a lower quadrant.
I will now need to google for any working diagram details for our NSWR track circuited lower quads to ascertain just what was inside the box attached.
Steve.

That's OK. El Porteno was asking if it was a signal reverser (replacer) and we've been showing him that it isn't, just a means of detecting the signal's position to confirm back to the box the signal has worked as it should. The automatic replacers on the signals in your photos are a much larger bit of kit and basically involve 'breaking' a link between two parts of the operating rod electromagnetically so the signal goes back to danger and needs the lever in the box replaced before the signal can be operated again.
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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby Andrew Waugh » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:02 pm

stevej wrote:I will now need to google for any working diagram details for our NSWR track circuited lower quads to ascertain just what was inside the box attached.


It's a Reid's Patent signal reverser. Reid was a telegraph fitter on the Victorian Railways. I rather suspect that he had the job of repairing the Sykes replacer then in use in Victoria - he was well aware of limitations of the Sykes replacer. The reverser is one of the very few pieces of signalling equipment invented in one Australian state and used in another. (NIH was well and truly alive in Australia :-) The reverser was used in Victoria, South Australia, and NSW.

Essentially, Reid's idea was a means of wrapping a large lever into a (relatively small) box. The mechanical leverage was sufficiently large that the weight of the downrod and signal (somersault in Victoria) could be supported by the armature of a (relatively) small electromagnetic relay. This meant that restoring the signal to danger didn't require falling hammers knocking catches out of tappets. Reid's patent was consequently much cheaper to maintain than the Sykes reversers.

For those that are interested, here are three photos of the innards...
Signal on, lever normal: http://www.wiki.prov.vic.gov.au/index.p ... _P5_S_0187
Signal off: http://wiki.prov.vic.gov.au/index.php/V ... _P5_S_0188
Reverser tripped: http://www.wiki.prov.vic.gov.au/index.p ... _P5_S_0186
Restoring the lever normal placed everything back to the first picture.

Note that the reverser also worked as a controller. If the lever was reversed with the relay de-energised, the reverser went straight from the first picture to the third (i.e. the arm didn't come off).

The Reid's reverser was trialed on the Midland Rly in the UK. Clearly it was not adopted. I have the impression that reversers were not completely trusted in the UK due to the fear of them freezing at 'all clear' and not operating.
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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby John Hinson » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:56 pm

Andrew Waugh wrote:The Reid's reverser was trialed on the Midland Rly in the UK. Clearly it was not adopted. I have the impression that reversers were not completely trusted in the UK due to the fear of them freezing at 'all clear' and not operating.

Do we know that for sure? A few signals on the Midland did have replacers of some sort.

I see no great issue with reversers freezing, after all they only echo the signalman's actions in a more timely manner. There were plenty of replacers in Scotland, mostly around Glasgow.

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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby Andrew Waugh » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:21 am

The reference to their trial by the Midland was an aside in the discussion on an IRSE paper. But which one I can't now remember. I have an idea that the comment on the mistrust of reversers was in the same discussion.
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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby John Hinson » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:51 pm

Andrew Waugh wrote:The reference to their trial by the Midland was an aside in the discussion on an IRSE paper. But which one I can't now remember. I have an idea that the comment on the mistrust of reversers was in the same discussion.

Thanks.

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Re: Electric Signal Reverser

Unread postby stevej » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:45 am

G'day John and Andrew,
Thanks for the further info and especially the photos.
I now have a good understanding of the principle.
I did search through my NSWR 1967 GA part 2 but did not find anything specific.
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