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Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

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Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby klas blomberg » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:28 pm

In the 19th Century Swedish semaphores looked very much like the English ones - a wooden arm with a straight cut at the end.

In the beginning of the 20th Century we adopted the german form of semaphore arms, steel arms with a roundel at the end - and we also changed the way we painted semaphore arms.

The painting instructions from that time (1916) gives three alternatives:
alternative 1: half red-half white (as in Germany in those days)
alternative 2: red with a white stripe (as normal English practice)
alternative 3: white with a red stripe, i.e. reversed English painting - for use in surroundings where it was hard to see a red arm.
http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq40/lon71/scannat/Banlara%20del%202/s96.jpg

I suppose alternative 2 is interesting for English users - such a mix of English and german has never been seen in any of those countries
http://www.samlingsportalen.se/getitem-record?PID=SE_SJM_FG_Jvm_KDAF05139
http://www.samlingsportalen.se/getitem-record?PID=SE_SJM_FG_Jvm_KDAA09112
Unfortunately this painting was abandoned in the early 1940's when alternative 1 was given as the only option

Alternative 3 is even more exciting.
This painting was very rare, and got prohibited already in 1930. And - I wonder where the idea came from?
Has there ever been English semaphores with reversed coulour schemes? Or - is it an influence from the german Negitiv-flügel ("Negative arm")?
http://www.samlingsportalen.se/getitem-record?PID=SE_SJM_FG_Jvm_KAGF01101
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby MRFS » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:18 am

Klas vaguely related to the semaphores, have you got any information about the discs that were in use when there were double-armed semaphores in the middle of a station, please?
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby Richard Lemon » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:59 pm

Whilst I can guess where MRFS is leading (!) - can I ask Klas what the block working was?

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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby MRFS » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:21 pm

Fie! Am I that transparent!

Telegraph and later telephone block?
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby Richard Lemon » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:09 am

The Double Arm signal and disc set up seems so French, that I am intrigued. I even thought "Lartigue", but then dismissed the idea as there is no block apparatus on the signal posts.

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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby klas blomberg » Fri Feb 6, 2015 4:03 pm

MRFS wrote:Klas vaguely related to the semaphores, have you got any information about the discs that were in use when there were double-armed semaphores in the middle of a station, please?


You don't happend to have some sort of photo on such a disc?
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby klas blomberg » Fri Feb 6, 2015 4:41 pm

Richard Lemon wrote:The Double Arm signal and disc set up seems so French, that I am intrigued. I even thought "Lartigue", but then dismissed the idea as there is no block apparatus on the signal posts.

Richard


French? That's an idea
At least it moved my thoughts in Another direction - and I landed i Belgium - isn't the belgian semaphores quite similar to the Swedish alternative2?

http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/belgium/semaphore.htm
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby MRFS » Fri Feb 6, 2015 4:54 pm

klas blomberg wrote:
MRFS wrote:Klas vaguely related to the semaphores, have you got any information about the discs that were in use when there were double-armed semaphores in the middle of a station, please?


You don't happend to have some sort of photo on such a disc?


I have a drawing, somewhere. It'll take me a little while to find.
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby Frank » Fri Feb 6, 2015 6:37 pm

Hello Klas,


you know that in the 19th Century the Railway Signalisation in Germany startet with British Signal Boxes and Signals.

Also that Germany at that Time not a "One Leader-Country" was ??.....here they where many States with own Railways like Prussia,Bavaria,Saxonia and so on.

So in the greatest Country Prussia there startet a own way of Signalling pratice because of the different Climate and Traffic of Prussia then of England.

The best Example is the Sperrsignal in our Picture on the right:
http://www.samlingsportalen.se/getitem- ... _KAGF01101

It is typical for the German shunting practice.

Until the End of WW I there where many different Signal Types in Germany. The first "United" Signal Book came after the WW I in order.
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby PDR » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:07 pm

I think when it comes to the interpretation of the early Swedish 'T' signal it is akin to the early Brown Marshall installation on the Festiniog Railway, and seem to have been three aspect red/green/clear in the early days. MdeC should be drooling by now. The block was controlled using timetable and telegraph/telephone with the stationmaster telegraphing ahead to find out if the line is clear. The original wooden 'T' signals were replaced by iron examples - for example, one has recently been re-erected at Tule on Gotland - http://www.gotlandstaget.se - whilst the next station along Hesselby has a wooden one, which is a modern copy being UQ rather than LQ. The narrow gauge line east out of Uppsala, the Lennankatten, also has a range of old-fashioned Swedish signalling. On busier lines, including the Trefoten lines out of Stockholm, German lock-and-block equipment and semaphore-based speed signalling, subtly adapted by the Swedes.

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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby MRFS » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:58 pm

Absolutely, your Grace.

The Discs I'm thinking of are the mechanical version, and I think there are more than parallels with Festiniog practice.

I have a .pdf of something on this machine. I will host it and amend this post.
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby Frank » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:58 pm

Hello Pdr,


this:
http://www.gotlandstaget.se/tule.htm

is an very Earlier Signal and at the beginning without any Block connection to other Stations.

In Germany it was called Bahnhofs-Abschluß-Telegraf and the Predessor of the Einfahrsignal (Home Signal) .

It was for the Up and Down Trains the Signal to "go" in the Station or not,but praticable only at the Beginning of Railways,when Trains not have great Speed.

Here for Example the average Speed of Trains in the earlier Days was about 25 Km/h.

Also at that Days the Points where locally observed by Point Men (Weichenwärter). That was one thing except the security,why Signal Boxes where developed.
Because with the growing of Traffic you need more and more Point Men.
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby PDR » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:40 am

Frank,

When you refer to 'block' do you mean the English 'section of railway between two controlled points' or the tighter German definition which implies interlocking between block instruments and signals at both ends of the block - what I tend to refer to as 'block and lock'?

In British terms, the 'T' signals are like the two armed home signals used on the Festiniog from c.1868 that governed the entry into stations, passage into the block beyond was governed by authorization from the station masters controlling the section between that station and the next. From about 1870 onwards the usual custom was to place the two homes on separate posts at either end of the loop (as per IMR) rather than on a common post by the station building. The divergence in handling the block would be that in the UK, the man from the Board of Trade required additional mechanical/electrical safeguards in the form of UK type block instruments, staff, or staff and ticket (electric staff/tablet coming along in the 1890s), rather than relying solely on the timetable and telegraph.

I asked the folks at Hesselby how they controlled the line for two train operation, which has occurred most weekends since the beginning of summer, and they informed me that they use telephone block with a station master at Hesselby, and Tule. Train crews phone in from Roma to Tule to release and request the block between there and Tule. On one train running days, rather than hogging the block, they phone in to Hesselby to release both the Tule and Roma blocks when they reach Roma. Given the low speeds - about 20km/h max. - I don't suppose any safety guys are going to get grey hairs over that!

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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby Frank » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:33 pm

Hello,

When you refer to 'block' do you mean the English 'section of railway between two controlled points'


i mean that,because in Time of the T-Signals (here between 1840 and 1870) there where only the Morse-Aparatus for communication
between the Stations.

From about 1870 onwards the usual custom was to place the two homes on separate posts at either end of the loop (as per IMR) rather than on a common post by the station building.


Yes,that is done because the Speed of the Trains raise rapidly in that Time so the Drivers need more distance for breaking to stop the Train,if the Signal is at Danger.
Also at that Time the developing of the Distant Signal startet.
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Re: Swedish semaphore arms - Anglo-german crossover

Unread postby PDR » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:32 am

The signal at Tule looks c.1900 by Swedish standards. By then the Swedes were buying their signalling components from German, or were making German type equipment under license in Sweden. It was to be a few more years, 1915, IIRC, before the mainline network there began to be re-signalled in accordance with the general principles one would have found in northern Germany. There are some minor differences from the 1920s German standard, but it is of that signalling family, not the British. One obvious different in Sweden is that some main signals had three arms indicating fast, medium, and low speeds through complex track layouts. Another Swedish speciality is flashing green for caution at the advance signals - as well as some colour changes to the way signal arms and switch levers are painted to help visibility in the snow.

Minors lines tended to stick with telephone block and limited mechanical signalling, though there is some piecemeal use of colour light signalling at locations like Vastervik, and Uppsala where the NG station is shared with the mainline, or as at Marielund (ULJ), where the semaphores have been replaced by colour lights in the 1950s, though the whole lot is still controlled by a traditional mechanical frame with two wire control.

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