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German frames in India?

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German frames in India?

Unread postby hmmueller » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:32 pm

Regarding signalling equipment, India, I assumed, was always "strictly in British hands." (at least up to, say, 1980 or so).
However,
  • I stumbled over this page - I am quite sure that these two levers are of type "Deutsche Einheit";
  • and I weakly remember some text about electro-mechanical Siemens frames (most probably type 1912) that had been installed in some Indian metropole.
Is that so? Would anyone have additional information about German signalling frames in India?

Thanks!
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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby JRB » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:51 pm

Not sure about frames, but the big panel in Delhi is German.
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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby Frank » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:14 pm

Hello,


yes, the Siemens Company had in her Portfolio specialy Export -Types of mechanical and electro-mechanical Frames.

This was sold to India time ago.

Today the Company is selling Electronicaly Interlocking over there.
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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby Andrew Waugh » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:11 am

India extensively used (indeed uses) double wire frames.

In the 1920s the British signalling firm Westinghouse developed German double wire technology into a package that they felt would be acceptable to UK signalling engineers. The modifications included the incorporation of standard UK tappet locking in the frames, and point mechanisms designed to operate standard UK facing point locks and lockbars. They were particularly interested in the colonial market which was beginning to operate longer trains on single lines (read long crossing loops) in locations with no prospect of power supplies for motor operation of points. They had some success in this - their double wire frames could be found in Africa, in the Indian subcontinent, SE Asia, and Australia. Examples could even be found in the UK. I believe that India has since 'standardised' this technology to be independent of a particular supplier.

Anyone interested in technical details of the Indian DW frames should read 'Indian Railway Signal Engineering' Vol II/III (combined volume) by Pramod P. Goel and available for download from http://thegoelassociates.com/ (click on the publications tab). Beware! It's about 8.6 meg in length.
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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby hmmueller » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:29 pm

Andrew, thank you for this link - really a great find! It shows, indeed, a whole range from "very German" designs (e.g. wire tensioners, groove mechanisms for moving signal arms) to "totally British" designs (FPLs, tappet locking) - quite a mixture! When I find some time, I'll try to understand some more details.

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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby Frank » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:42 pm

Hello Andrew,

on that
http://thegoelassociates.com/

Site the you find the Standarsized Type of German mechanical Double-Wire ( called Einheits-Stellwerk).

The Author of the site is right with the Date (1920 because with the foundation of the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft (DRG) the
former 20 Suplliers was put to build new Boxes only on this new Standard (Regelzeichnung).
He is wrong with his explanation that Double wires System where developed at that Time.


Here is a Overview with historic Pictures of the former Signal Manufacturers
http://www.berliner-stellwerke.de/eisen ... alten.html
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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:10 pm

Interesting attachment Frank. I couldn't help noticing how the 19th century contractors' brochures sought to impress more with the architecture and size of their factories rather more on than the merits of their products
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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby Frank » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:20 pm

Hello Mike,

in the 19th Century the "sight" of the Company Owners was very differnet then today.

Did you know, that the Social Insurance first was established in Germany by Locomotive Manufactors ??

Borsig established the pension insurance and Krupp the sick Insurance long before the Germann Empire a govermental System in 1886 established.

The Term with her Name was not a Phrase, the Company Owners stand for it.

So the showing of the Factory and her Buildings was not to impress but rather to show everthing to be trustwothy.
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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby Pete2320 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:02 pm

Frank wrote:Hello Mike,

in the 19th Century the "sight" of the Company Owners was very differnet then today.

Did you know, that the Social Insurance first was established in Germany by Locomotive Manufactors ??

Borsig established the pension insurance and Krupp the sick Insurance long before the Germann Empire a govermental System in 1886 established.

The Term with her Name was not a Phrase, the Company Owners stand for it.

So the showing of the Factory and her Buildings was not to impress but rather to show everthing to be trustwothy.

At the end of that there is a picture apparently showing levers 442, 443 and 444. Was there really a frame of this size?

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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby hmmueller » Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:16 pm

Pete2320 wrote:At the end of that there is a picture apparently showing levers 442, 443 and 444. Was there really a frame of this size?


No, never :)

As most of you certainly know (see, of course, Jörn Pachl's explanation), in Central Europe, the "unit of control" is not a single signal box, but a complete station. Thus, signals and points are numbered not per signal box, but per station ("yard"?); and in larger stations, ranges of numbers were assigned to various parts of the station - e.g., 1...99 for points in western throat, 101...199 eastern throat, 201 and up for points leading up to hump, 301 etc. for points below hump, 801 and upwards for points near roundhouse, and so on.

In Austria, also for small stations, ranges were and are used: 1...29 for "up" throat, 30...49 for "middle points," 51... for "down" throat. So a very small station on a single-tracked line with a loop track will have points 1 and 51.

So, what we see here, is a number of levers on a signal box for points in the 440s range - probably on a larger classification yard (Edit: For an example of a track plan of such a yard, here is a scan of the old - long defunct - classification yard on the eastern side of Munich. The yard had eleven signal boxes, and one can see that the points were numbered in "100 bunches" according to their rough location. A final group of points in the 600 range is visible at the right top.)

Levers as such are never "numbered" with a visible plate in Central Europe. There are "location numbers" for the people that build the frames ("Hebelplatz" is the German term), but they are only shown on the technical plans.

Regards
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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby Frank » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:17 pm

Hello Pete,


At the end of that there is a picture apparently showing levers 442, 443 and 444. Was there really a frame of this size?


No, because for mechanical Boxes the View of the Points from the Box didnt allow that also naturally the lenght of the Wire to move the points.

The Numbers on the Levers on the Picture belongs to Points and they very numbered in direction of the Main line.

For Example Line Cologne to Aachen in the Station Düren the count starts with the first Point from Cologne and then every Point or Point Lock or Catch Point get its Number. Independent if it was by Signal Box or local by Hand operated.

So you could have 200 Points in a Station but only 100 Points operated by Levers from the Box.

The biggest mechanical Lever Frames where like this one:
http://www.digitalbahner.de/images/lehrte7.jpg

This depend on the Construction of the Frame. 8 Levers where standarsized = 1 Hebelbank (the Frame in witch the Levers are mounted).
For 12 Levers you need 2 Hebelbänke and have on the second 4 empty Places for Levers.
And so on until the maximum of 80 Levers = 10 Hebelbänke, because on this length the Physical End for Manpower is archieved (Route Locking ).

Not forget the Block Apparatus on one or both ends of the Frame (see in the Picture on the right.

So in all you have a maximum length of 40 Meters for the greatest Boxes here.

Signal Boxes like that where manned with 2 to 6 Signal men depending on the Traffic of Passenger or Freight Trains in the Station.

And because of the many Staff this Boxes where also the first who was repleaced with electro-mechanical and later with electric or in this Century with
electronic Boxes.
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Re: German frames in India?

Unread postby Pete2320 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:44 pm

Thanks hmmueller and Frank. I didn't really think there were frames of 444+ levers but was non the less puzzled by it. Actually I think I have come across something similar in America where three boxes controlling a large station had there levers numbered in one series.

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