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Collision in Germany

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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby discernment » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:40 am

1. Why the train was delayed? For a reason not related to the accident such as the festival?

2. If the signal man press the button, doesn't any function work including automatic train stopping system?

3. Drivers, in Japan, have to receive a document, via fax or something, when trains have to change the place where they cross. Don't they need such a document?

4. If the signal man activate the Zs1, can he do anything, say, for example, can he deliberately make a train crash?

5. How do the signal man allow both trains to go ahead? Just by showing the Zs1 signal which consists of three white lamps? Do both of the drivers only see the white triangle shaped lamps and went ahead? Don't the drivers feel something unusual or strange? Or do you guess Zs1 signal is frequently used to recover the delay and the drivers didn't feel nothing strange?

6. In such cases, our ATS (automatic train stop) still alive, and unless the driver doesn't turn it off deliberately, trains automatically stop.

7. Usually tracks have block circuit and once it detect the train by the electronic flow, no other train can get into the same line. Isn't it true?
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby kbarber » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:06 am

The other point - perhaps essential - is that (if I understand it correctly), because of the level crossing in the section part of the single-line section will remain dark, even though a train has been signalled into it, until the level crossing controls operate. Therefore a signalman concentrating on the Bad Aibling end of the panel would see only a dark section on the single line and would need to look further afield (or notice the one small yellow indication) to see there's a route already called from Kolbermoor? If that's so, it really would seem like a trap that could be very easy to fall into.

Whatever the detail, it seems to have come down to one of those inexplcable moments of forgetfulness. Sympathies for the unfortunate signalman... he must be going through - now. There, but for the grace of God, go I.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:49 am

Hello,


>1. Why the train was delayed? For a reason not related to the accident such as the festival?

That is not unusual on German Lines....for that the Public calls DB also Daheim Bleiben 8)
(Stay at Home, the Joke remains on the Capital letters)


>2. If the signal man press the button, doesn't any function work including automatic train stopping system?

Except the PZB at the Signals there is the Train Radio GSM-R (Zugbahnfunk) and that is the next mytery, the Signal man called each Train
seperatly instead of the Emergency Call (Streckennotruf) witch is received from all active Train Radios in the Range of the LIne


>3. Drivers, in Japan, have to receive a document, via fax or something, when trains have to change the place where they cross. Don't they need such a document?

No, this is done by Train Radio if nessesary.



>4. If the signal man activate the Zs1, can he do anything, say, for example, can he deliberately make a train crash?

Yes, Emergency Call on the Train Radio, this is tested with every Signal man on every Box yearly.

>5. How do the signal man allow both trains to go ahead? Just by showing the Zs1 signal which consists of three white lamps? Do both of the drivers only see >the white triangle shaped lamps and went ahead? Don't the drivers feel something unusual or strange? Or do you guess Zs1 signal is frequently used to >recover the delay and the drivers didn't feel nothing strange?

Yes, the Zs1 is in common use here since teh 1930-Years.
No, only one Driver see a Zs1.


>6. In such cases, our ATS (automatic train stop) still alive, and unless the driver doesn't turn it off deliberately, trains automatically stop.

The PZB also is override by the Driver with the Befehlstaste.

>7. Usually tracks have block circuit and once it detect the train by the electronic flow, no other train can get into the same line. Isn't it true

That work correctly and also the Signals where locked by Block.That was the Case why the Signal man released the Zs1.

It is the mistery, because he had the whole Line on his Panel and there are many things that shows the Train is coming from Kolbermoor.
Also why he try to reach each Train seperatly by Train Radio,

We had to wait for the final Report from the investigating Eisenbahn-Bundesamt.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby hmmueller » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:09 pm

Frank wrote:>5. Don't the drivers feel something unusual or strange? Or do you guess Zs1 signal is frequently used to recover the delay and the drivers didn't feel nothing strange?

Yes, the Zs1 is in common use here since teh 1930-Years.
No, only one Driver see a Zs1.

Just to clarify: The Zs1 is mounted on virtually all signals. But the use of Zs1 is very rare. A typical register will contain maybe a dozen entries per month for a whole station (all signals), from my experience. None of these Zs1 uses will have anything to do with "recovering a delay" - there is no way a Zs1 will reduce the running time of a train: If the track is free, the standard way of clearing signals will allow the train to run without further delay; and if the track is not free, then of course signalling Zs1 is not allowed and also does not make any sense.

There are only two reasons for giving a Zs1: Either a planned; or an unplanned problem with the signal itself so that it cannot be cleared. A "planned problem" might e.g. be that some track circuit is currently modified (for whatever reasons - end-of-life, repair) by a work crew, so that during this time the interlocking will not allow the signal to be cleared. An "unplanned problem" is a malfunction. But clearing Zs1 means that all other elements of the route have to be in a safe state - points must be in the right position and locked, tracks must be free, barriers lowered etc. It is the reponsibility of the signalman to ascertain all this before clearing a Zs1. So, Zs1 is a means to expedite the traffic in the event of very specific failures, not more and not less.

Because of this, drivers will not feel "something strange" about seeing a Zs1.

(This is the same as if you would ask whether flight stewards would feel "something strange" when an engine of an aeroplane during flight stops. Of course, this means that something untypical has happened. But the technology and the processes used for flying aeroplanes make it very very certain the pilots knew what they did when they stopped the engine - they would never do this "just for fun" or even "to save fuel," but only after having checked via a predefined process whether it was (a) necessary and (b) safe to do this. Still, some pilots happen to e.g. do a CFIT ...)

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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:47 pm

Hello,


there
The Zs1 is mounted on virtually all signals


i must correct you.

Trough Time there are some differences

a) mechanical Boxes
are fitted with Zs 1- Subsidiary Signals on the Signals at the Main Tracks and the Home Signals.All other Tracks normaly have no Zs1

b)electro-mechnaical Boxes
here are normaly all Signals equipped with Zs1

c)electric Relay (Panel) Boxes
They have Zs1 ore Zs7 on all Signals

Also there is a difference between Instalations in East-and West Germany. In the former DDR (East Germany) there are Signal Boxes of all kind refitted with
Dayligth Signals that shows the so called Hl Signal System. on that the Zs1 is only 1 white blinking Lamp.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby hmmueller » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:58 pm

... ah, yes, I meant (but did not write) "light signals". Of course, you are right.

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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:13 pm

There are now a few places in the UK with a signal called a 'Proceed On Site Authority' Signal (known as a POSA) the Thameslink route being one of them. The clearence of these requires the same conditions as the Zs1 signal.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby JanH » Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:19 pm

There a few differences though:
1) It's not called "Proceed-on-Sight Authority" for nothing, so it's rather comparable to a Zs 7.
2) As far as I've gathered, the PoSA aspect can only be cleared when a route has been set up to the next signal and all points within the route [1] are detected in the correct position.

[1] Meaning that points that are e.g. required for flank protection, but which lie outside the actual route itself, aren't required to be in the correct position.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:35 pm

JanH wrote:There a few differences though:
1) It's not called "Proceed-on-Sight Authority" for nothing, so it's rather comparable to a Zs 7.
2) As far as I've gathered, the PoSA aspect can only be cleared when a route has been set up to the next signal and all points within the route [1] are detected in the correct position.

[1] Meaning that points that are e.g. required for flank protection, but which lie outside the actual route itself, aren't required to be in the correct position.

Correct, points in route only required set and locked, any controlled level crossings down and either proved clear or crossing clear pressed, birth track required occupied. occupied. This is more or less as hmmueller described Zs1 but I stand to be corrected on this point.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:07 pm

Hello,

This is more or less as hmmueller described Zs1 but I stand to be corrected on this point.


yes i must correct hmmueller in this point.

Only on electronical Boxes (EStw) there is a route locking.

On electric Relay Boxes like Sp Dr S60 you only lock the automatic route setting by Trains (Weichenlaufkette sperren) but not Points etc.
But in most circumstances you have the luck, that the route is full going in an locked ,only the Signal remains in Danger for unknown reason.
Like on the old mechanical Boxes you have on the Panel a "Block indicator" (Fahrstraßenfestlegemelder) at the Signal,that shows you the Station Block
electric lock the route (a yellow illuminated square).Also the Route is on the Panel illuminated in yellow and so you see that everything in
the Station is ok.
Then you must check the Line for clear,in older Days with the next manned Box. But Today while many Boxes (and stations) where gone, the Rules
say check to the next Block Signal.
If the Block section is free and the next Block Signal is at Danger and no Failure is indicated, you are by Rules permitted to release the Zs1.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:21 pm

Frank,

Thank you, very informative, one day I may fully understand the technical details of the various European systems beyond understanding the aspect displayed.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Culburrarail » Tue Mar 8, 2016 9:37 am

I know very little except what I have read here and on other websites about the German Signaling system. I am however an expert on logic problems one of which is aptly named 'Deadly Embrace'. I suspect that the Bad Aibling/Kolbermoor collision may have occurred because of one such event. I need some basic information to add flesh to the bones of my theory.
1/. How many KM between the two stations?
2/. How does the German system in use set the route interlocks?
3/. By this I mean that when the route from Kolbermoor was sought did that select, set and interlock the Switches (Points) at BOTH stations?

I have ben told but don't know if it a fact that the Bad Aibling signal man must have over ridden the route interlocks as well as setting the Zs 1

My theory is to suggest that the Switches(Points) at Bad Aibling were still set to favor the route from Bad Aibling to Kolbermoor. Thus when the poor signal man checked the line all indications were that there was a signaling fault and he could use Zs1 to allow his train to proceed.
To proceed further I need to know what speed and distance the Bad A train did. What speed and distance the Kolbermoor train did.
With some fancy Maths I can then work out at what time the trains left their respective stations.
If my theory is correct then the trains left their stations at almost the same time!

The signal man undoubtedly caused the accident by setting the Zs 1 but what if those points remained locked in favor of his train?
One final question can a train with a Zs 1 signal in it's favor cause the points to unlock and change in it's favor or should the interlock prevent this?
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Tue Mar 8, 2016 7:21 pm

Hello,


to reply your Questions.....

1/. How many KM between the two stations?

Bad Aibling Milepost (Km) 27, 8
Kolbermoor Milepost (Km) 33,0
Distance 5,2 Kilometers

2/. How does the German system in use set the route interlocks?

On a Panel Relays Box like in Bad Aibling you have allways a automatic Station Block for the Tracks in the Station. Border is the Einfahrsignal from the Line.
The automatic Station Block works on the princip of the former mechanical Station Block in Saxonia,this means a route is build up by seperate
"Parts" of the route. (In flesh that works on shunt routes,witch are building the whole Train Route).
If all Parts are set and seperat lock, the the Main Lock is established (Route Locking /Fahrstraßenfestlegung) shown by a yellow square.From that moment on the Route could only canceld by two ways:
a) The Train drives along the Route and released it by passing the Track Circuit or Axle Counters

b) The Signal Man released the Route by a special Type of Push Button with a numeric Counter


3/. By this I mean that when the route from Kolbermoor was sought did that select, set and interlock the Switches (Points) at BOTH stations?

No, the Points where only Locked in Kolbermoor.
For Bad Aibling that wasn`t nessesary, because the Signals in direction Kolbermoor where locked.If you set a Route in Bad Aibling it come up until the
Route Locking but the Signal remains in Danger, because the Line Block has locked them.
Between Bad Aibling and Kolbermoor there is automatic Line Blocking



I have ben told but don't know if it a fact that the Bad Aibling signal man must have over ridden the route interlocks as well as setting the Zs 1

No, the Zs1 is seperatly from all that.

The 1.Mistery is that the Signal Man in Bad Aibling had both Stations on his Panel and he had set the Route for the Train from Kolbermoor.
On that Line there was in 1975 a horrible Accident (Warngau) in direction Munich.

And the second Mistery is why he didn`t dial the 299 on the GSM-R )Emergency Call for all/Sammelruf ) instead of dialing the Trains seperatly.
The Sammelruf reach the Drivers Mobile Phone or the installed Radio Phone also as a Display Sign .
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Culburrarail » Wed Mar 9, 2016 9:50 am

Thanks for that clarification.
It seems counter intuitive for the facing Switch at Bad Aibling not to be set and locked for the Kolbermoor train. When does the train get it's total block route selected and set.
I am still investigating this.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Culburrarail » Wed Mar 9, 2016 12:57 pm

I have done my Maths and came up with the following figures.
The Bad Aibling operator had just 1:03 minutes at the maximum to react. if he reacted at any time within 1:30 seconds after seeing the Kolbermoor train illuminate his board then the crash may have been averted presuming both trains could come to a standstill in 27 and 21 seconds respectively.
Do my figures agree with the black box timings?
One question" Is it the Kolbermoor train entering the Block that would have operated and locked the switch(Points) at Bad Aibling?
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