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Collision in Germany

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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Tue Apr 5, 2016 9:41 am

This was in Germany! If the light says "go", you go.

Remember that when the single-line head-on collision occurred in that area in the 1970s as a result of a timetabling error, various people noticed that two trains were scheduled to meet head-on (but only on Sundays!) but assumed that if the timetable said so it must be right.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Tue Apr 5, 2016 11:12 am

JRB wrote:Something a friend put to me: Why didn't the driver ask the signalman the reason for the Zs1? "Our West Highland drivers always query anything unusual with the Banavie signalman."


That seems to be a bit much to ask. I would expect a driver to query something only if he had grounds to suspect it was not order.
I'm sure it would be good practice to explain to train crews the reasons behind any unusual movements where this can be done without causing delay, but if what is being done is in accordance with the standard rules, it is perfectly reasonable of a driver to take a proceed signal when it is given. Does your friend think that the West Highland crews have some reason to doubt the way Banavie is worked?
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby John Hinson » Tue Apr 5, 2016 11:45 am

The nearest equivalent in the UK would be the use of a subsidiary signal in place of a main aspect and in circumstances where a subsidiary should not be used it would be absolutely correct for a driver to question it. In the UK there are other circumstances where drivers should challenge signals but on the continent, with speed signalling being common, there seem to be few circumstances where signals are challenged. I think it is right to ask the question, and I hope it isn't just us that are asking it.

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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby JRB » Tue Apr 5, 2016 1:38 pm

I don't think Scottish drivers seriously doubt Banavie's staff or technology, but they like to have the background information, even when it's only to answer the passengers who want delays explained. Certainly if I was cautioned into a section I would want the cause of the caution explained.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Tue Apr 5, 2016 9:24 pm

Hello David,


Remember that when the single-line head-on collision occurred in that area in the 1970s as a result of a timetabling error,


But the sad Drivers at that Time had a green Signal and no Chance to see that it was wrong.


@John
I think it is right to ask the question, and I hope it isn't just us that are asking it.

As a first response the Speed for Trains moving on Zs1 is restricted down to 40 Km/h here.

Also a Task Force is working on the Rules about Zs1.

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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Wed Apr 6, 2016 8:47 pm

Frank wrote:Hello David,


Remember that when the single-line head-on collision occurred in that area in the 1970s as a result of a timetabling error,


But the sad Drivers at that Time had a green Signal and no Chance to see that it was wrong.


But those unfortunate drivers had every chance to see that there was a problem because it was printed in the timetable, even in the public Kursbuch. I was the head of BR's international timetabling section at the time and several of my staff knew personally the DB timetable-compilers who were subsequently dismissed for making such a terrible mistake. My understanding was that the staff on the ground made the classic mistakes of the "tick box" approach to safety, they noticed that there was a fatal error in the timetable but they all assumed that it was someone else's responsibility to do something about it so none of them did.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby John Hinson » Thu Apr 7, 2016 7:56 am

davidwoodcock wrote:But those unfortunate drivers had every chance to see that there was a problem because it was printed in the timetable, even in the public Kursbuch. I was the head of BR's international timetabling section at the time and several of my staff knew personally the DB timetable-compilers who were subsequently dismissed for making such a terrible mistake. My understanding was that the staff on the ground made the classic mistakes of the "tick box" approach to safety, they noticed that there was a fatal error in the timetable but they all assumed that it was someone else's responsibility to do something about it so none of them did.

I'm sorry but that first sentence is bordering on the absurd!

Drivers are issued with timetables so that they can keep their train to time (if signalling and other circumstances permit). In the UK they are not expected to study the schedules for the opposite direction to see what trains they will meet and when and I would be very surprised if the situation was not the same in any other country. If drivers are supposed to avoid accidents by reading the timetable, I wonder why signals and signalmen are provided . . .

I was in scheduling too. In the UK an error in scheduling would not cause an accident, it would cause an inconvenience. I am rather surprised that schedulers in Germany were considered responsible for train safety - and dismissed accordingly.

It really sounds as if Germany has been a bit behind the times with their "system" of safety. I get the impression that everybody has total faith in the information they are given without questioning it (which tells me the issue is way above signalmen, drivers and schedulers) and it is comforting to hear from Frank that things are under review.

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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Thu Apr 7, 2016 8:16 am

I had the same thoughts as John but had kept quiet until now, it certainly seems to be a strange way of working even to someone familiar with the way that dark territory (no signalling system at all on the ground) is worked in the USA.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Thu Apr 7, 2016 12:02 pm

Hello,

some remarks to this
But those unfortunate drivers had every chance to see that there was a problem because it was printed in the timetable, even in the public Kursbuch.


In germany there is a difference between the public (Kursbuch) Timetable and the duty Timetable for the Staff.

For the Staff the base Timetable is the Bildfahrplan (Train Graph) for every Line. On this Paper at first all Trains where drawing and so you see at the moment when something is wrong. So that happend on the planning of the Trains there,the Draw lines meet "on the Line" whitch is normally
impossible.The Compiler had than to make the decision, at what Station the crossing had to apply.
In this Case the Man decide to create a new kind of crossing,the air crossing (Luftkreuzung) on the line.
Because that is impossible it was now on the Station Masters of the Stations Warngau and Schaftlach to decide the Crossing of the Trains.
In every Station is a duty Timetable, so called Bahnhofsfahrordnung where you see every Train with his Track and what are special purposes with the Train.
So there had to be made a record "Train xxxxx cross in Warngau with Train YYYY "
This happend not,because they believe in the fact that one of this Trains always runs late, it works so.

The Fatal tragedy then happend with the self made Train announcing of the both Signalmen there.
Because the Omnibus Phone on the Line was equipped with a Voice Recording Machine (Sprachspeicher) after the Accident the Call could replayed in
Duty education.It was far from the Text of the official Rules Book (Fahrdienstvorschrift) and so they didn`t realized that every Man means another Train.

The Line had no Line Block and so both Trains run on green Signal into the single Line.

After the Accident there startet discussion in Public and also in the Parliament about the lack of Block System for the Line.
But the facts are that the Deutsche Bundesbahn as a Goverment Railway gets her Money from the Goverment Budget and had to made a ranking of what to do with the Money.
For Example at First at the Time Military things (Iron Curtain) are fitted.We had Station where you sit as Signal man for 1 Train a day,because the Line was
under NATO-Edict.
Also Lines need renewing, because the last was before WWII





Today the Train Graph is a Computer Program and much of the Single Lines are closed or equipped with electronics.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Thu Apr 7, 2016 12:14 pm

I think that John and Graham have forgotten that, until comparatively recent times, timetable working was commonplace on single lines in many European countries including France and Germany. This meant that the responsibility for normal safe working certainly rested on the compilers' shoulders and station "masters" merely authorised the departure of trains at the time shown in the timetable, other arrangements only coming into force when normal working was disrupted. This may seem strange to British eyes but there is no evidence to suggest that it ever caused more "cornfield meets" than the more elaborate British systems. It is noteworthy that the accident concerned occurred on the first Sunday of a new timetable period, one of the trains concerned being scheduled to run in different timings on that day.

British WTTs routinely used an X symbol to indicate (potential) crossings on single lines so train crews should have been aware of places where they might cross other trains, although I recently came across a GWR WTT (IIRC from the mid-30s) that contained some odd errors in this respect and would certainly have caused accidents had timetable working been in force.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Thu Apr 7, 2016 12:39 pm

Frank wrote:Hello,


In germany there is a difference between the public (Kursbuch) Timetable and the duty Timetable for the Staff.




Not relevant to the subject but we have two timetables in the UK the working timetable (for the staff) and the public timetable.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Thu Apr 7, 2016 2:20 pm

Hello Graham,


today there is here not really a difference

If you have a Broadband Internet Connection then you can take a look here:
https://iris.noncd.db.de/wbt/js/index.h ... =&SecLang=

Real Time showing of Trains for Public and Staff in the Stations,as Staff you can reduce the showing to Train Number, Track and delay
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby kbarber » Fri Apr 8, 2016 8:19 am

davidwoodcock wrote:I think that John and Graham have forgotten that, until comparatively recent times, timetable working was commonplace on single lines in many European countries including France and Germany. This meant that the responsibility for normal safe working certainly rested on the compilers' shoulders and station "masters" merely authorised the departure of trains at the time shown in the timetable, other arrangements only coming into force when normal working was disrupted.
<snip>


I think the French stuck with it until the Flaujac collision of 1985, subsequently rolling out a computerised block system (though it still wasn't interlocked with signals, I believe).
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Wilkinstown » Fri Apr 8, 2016 8:34 am

To me it is inconceivable that a time table error alone would ever cause an accident. Are there lines carrying passengers still worked solely on timetable authority without a supervising dispatcher & some form of train order ?

From a distance it appears that the introduction of degraded working at Bad Aibling had too little checks and balances to ensure that the single line was clear or that the rules were not observed or both.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Fri Apr 8, 2016 3:27 pm

Hello,

Are there lines carrying passengers still worked solely on timetable authority without a supervising dispatcher & some form of train order ?


In the 1970th in East and West Germany many Single Lines (so called Nebenbahnen) where worked with Timetable and Train announcing for over
80 Years.That was no Problem, because over this Time it was ever the same working Staff (Steam Locomotive Drivers, Conductors, Signal man) and so there where supervision by each other.
The 1970th-Years was the beginning of the disapearing Steam Loco and replacement with Diesel Engines.So no more need for short distances runnings and also the Drivers come more round.Also the closing of small Stations and with that the Staff roulette (this means a rotary between the Signal Boxes)
took place.This was nessary, because on this Single Lines it was common, that the Staff on the Small Stations could do every Work (Ticket Office, Luggage,
Signal Box) in a rotary Shift system. With the closing of the small Stations the Boxes are still remains and they need relief personnel.


From a distance it appears that the introduction of degraded working at Bad Aibling had too little checks and balances to ensure that the single line was clear or that the rules were not observed or both.


This Mistery waits for clarification.....
Here
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you see the Permission Block Indicator on a German panel . The Yellow Arrow show the direction in that Trains can move (Permission /Erlaubnis).

Why the Signal man from Baid Aibling ignore both Arrows (he had one in Bad Aibling at the Track Sysmbol to Kolbermoor and one in Kolbermoor, is the
Mistery.

That he tried to set a route where even no Problem and that could be happend to every Signal man, because it is Routine.

But then he had to hearing the Alarm Bell in his Head.....because the Signal remains in Danger.And whit the Block Indicator it is clear why.
The Rules are simple and also over 150 Years the same, Check out that the last Train on the Line is in the next Station.
For that he had the Automatic Train Register ,where the Train movements are recorded.Also today the Train Radio (GSM-R) allows direct
contact with every Train and ask the Driver, where his Train is.

What and why he acted like he do......we had to wait for the Report from the Administration.

Also about the Mistery, why he tried to call the Trains seperatly on GSM-R.

Here since the introduction of Train Radio in the 1970th it where trained all Time with the Emergency Call for all.
You need no thinking about dialling ,on every Phone at Signal Boxes there is a Short Call Button, Press and wait for the Clear-Tone (max. 1 Sec.)
and talk.
On the GSM-R there is also a digital Code transceeived, so even if the Train Radio on the Loco had no Voice received, there is a Symbol (Loco with red Tail Lamps)that shows the Driver that a Emergency Call is received.
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