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M for Manoibra

Signalling outside the UK (but including Northern Ireland), past, present and future

M for Manoibra

Unread postby stevej » Thu Aug 4, 2016 5:52 am

G'day Pablo and others,
From another posting, I have encounterd photos of Argentinian lower quadrant semaphores featuring the letter M.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/44833183@ ... otostream/
I am wondering if the M stands for Manoibra (to shunt), and would equate to a Shunt Ahead ?
I have also seen other photos featuring the letter O attached to Argentinian semaphores.
I have also seen this application in Queensland Railway lower quadrant semaphores featuring the O.
The QR meaning being for turnout into sidings.
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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby John Hinson » Thu Aug 4, 2016 12:12 pm

Interesting.

I cannot make any suggestions for the meaning of the M but the "O" you mention was commonplace in the UK too. It was not actually regarded as a letter "O" but simply as a ring or circle so it did not represent anything beginning with that letter. The meaning and function varied between railway companies. "S" was also used in the UK, that stood for "Shunt Ahead" and occasionally "C" for "Calling On".

Your "M" must stand for something! "Main Line" is the first thought but if it reads up the headshunt line that can't be right.

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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby Frank » Thu Aug 4, 2016 2:16 pm

Hello Stevej,

you are right with that :
I am wondering if the M stands for Manoibra (to shunt)


Look here at the Signal Book :
http://www.todotren.com.ar/trenesturisticos/senal4.htm

Signal Number 4 = 4) Señal de maniobras


regards

Frank


P.S.
In Germany the Letter M on a Semaphor Signal means mündlich (Voice order from the Signal Man)
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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby Danny252 » Thu Aug 4, 2016 6:58 pm

And by the same site, a signal with an "O" governs entrance to secondary lines/sidings/loops - my Spanish isn't good enough to work out if "desvío" refers to points, tracks designated as sidings, or the act of being turned from one line or another!
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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby stevej » Sat Aug 6, 2016 4:40 am

G'day John, Frank and Danny,
Thanks for the responses.
I have grabbed the argentine signal info which helps to detail the situation.
Yes, Desvio means to detour, so turnout into sidings etc.
Points, charves, I am not too familiar with the Spanish term.
But, for Brasilian Portuguese, APM is the term, apparatus to change (the direction) being the translation.
I can't remember the correct Portuguese spelling here at the library for apparatus, but PM is para mudar.
A DB formsignal with M would be an interesting discovery, as I have not seen any in the numerous cab ride video clips that I have.
I presume that such was for shunting (rangieren) prior to the implementation of a sperrsignal.
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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby Frank » Sat Aug 6, 2016 9:34 pm

Hello Stevej,

I presume that such was for shunting (rangieren) prior to the implementation of a sperrsignal.


Oh no,it is for both and from the early Years of Signal Boxes here and remarkably now are coming up again with the
electronic Signal Boxes (EStW).
On Branch Lines and Termini Stations there it is now practice, to let the Semaphor Signals fixed in Place for the lasting one Track.
Entrance and exit ist operated by the Train Radio (GSM-R) .
Meaning of that is that Semaphor Signals are extremly vandalism resistent and also the Semaphor Signal needs no electric Lamps,because
by the Rule the Position of the Arm is important.


Now some Pictures of the M
http://picup.oliverlamm.de/files/IMG_13 ... gmx.de.jpg

http://www.bahnbilder.de/1024/ein-licht ... 583175.jpg




And here Photos of Semaphore Signals
http://www.rbd-erfurt.de/Kilometrierung ... tingen.htm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bilderjon ... otostream/



regards

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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby stevej » Sun Aug 7, 2016 5:43 am

G'day Frank,
Ah, I was getting confused and thinking that the letter M was actually attached to the DB formsignal arm.
That is why I had not seen any such examples.
The M tafel is attached to the signal post below the signal.
Yes, I now do remember mention of the M tafel, Zs 12, in the DB signalbuch.
I have also actually seen that smaller formsignal with vorsignal at Ruesselsheim in a cab ride video clip.
I had presumed that the height of the formsignal was lower due to restricted view from the bahnsteig.
I have also seen some dwarf Hp licht signale (gegengleis) in some video clips which had intrigued me.
I could not determine just why those Hp signale were dwarf size.
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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby Frank » Sun Aug 7, 2016 9:01 am

Hello Stevej,


I have also seen some dwarf Hp licht signale (gegengleis) in some video clips which had intrigued me.
I could not determine just why those Hp signale were dwarf size.


That is about the Rule in Time of the Bundesbahn for running on the wrong Track (here so called GWB = Gleis-Wechselbetrieb).
Hauptsignale had to be on the right of the Track and by running on the wrong Track they must be placed in the middle between the Tracks and in most cases
there where no Place for normal .For this purpose the small Dwarf Hauptsignale where developed.

By the Deutsche Bahn AG now it is common to Place the Signals for GWB on the left side of the wrong Track.
Also in practice then you have two Single Lines with full Block eqipment.


regards

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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby stevej » Tue Aug 9, 2016 3:11 am

G'day Frank,
We have diverged (abweichen) slightly.
Yes, I can understand the use of dwarf Hp signale when located in the six foot (between the tracks as we refer to it here).
But the dwarf signale seen for gegengleis GWB in the specific video clip are in standort links.
A schachbrett tafel for such signal located within the six foot.
I have seen numerous Schachbrett tafel Ne 4 where a signal is situated in another location.
But, generally that repositioned signal is normal size.
Unfortunately, I cannot remember the title of the specific video clip.
I would need to hunt for it at home to find the actual route location involved.
I did wonder at the visibility to the lokfuehrer of the dwarf Hp signale during gleiswechselbetrieb.
Here we also have some sections of double track worked as Bi-directional.
This has gradually increased over the years as rail traffic density has increased.
But mainly to facilitate quicker implementation of single line working during track work periods.
Falschfahrbetrieb requiring qualified staff to be on hand to manually work the infrastructure.
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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby Frank » Tue Aug 9, 2016 9:57 am

Hello SteveJ,

ohh that:
But the dwarf signale seen for gegengleis GWB in the specific video clip are in standort links.


is simple.
A Dwarf Hauptsignal is much cheaper then a Signal with Mast in normal high and often the GWB was much later added to the Signal Box,so every Penny counts.


I did wonder at the visibility to the lokfuehrer of the dwarf Hp signale during gleiswechselbetrieb

That was no Problem at the State Railway Bundesbahn,there where Crop duster Trains for the net also the S&T People cleans every Year the Signals in the area.

Today the PZB reminds the Train Driver of upcoming GWB Signals :)


regards

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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby stevej » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:43 am

G'day Frank,
Yes, I can understand the cost effectiveness of smaller signal infrastructure.
And, naturally the PZB system does reinforce the status of DB signale.
I guess that I have always been adamant about signal visibility.
Some incidents here in NSW occurring due to der lokfuehrer misidentifying a signal indication due to visibility.
And, we don't currently possess a signal automatic control system, other than the Train Stop apparatus within the Sydney Metrop region.
And, that is only fitted to emu and dmu passenger trains.
The Train Stop system is very good, but generally functions safely due to the double overlap employed for stop signal indications.
ATC was trialed here back in the early 1990s, but found to be too expensive.
The NSW government are planning to implement ATC at some stage in the future, a version of the ETCS.
This along with the removal of guards (zugfuehrer / begleiter) from suburban emu trains.
Here, the "poison train" was also a regular event around the network.
To remove lineside vegetation.
But, that has not occurred for many years due to pollution concerns.
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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby Frank » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:33 am

Hello SteveJ,

here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4japdWwtc0

a view from the good old days (1960er-Years). Schnellzug 204 on his Way from Dortmund Hbf to München Hbf with Signal Boxes from that Time.

Start with mechanical Box in Düsseldorf-Benrath.



regards

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Re: M for Manoibra

Unread postby stevej » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:06 am

G'day Frank,
Thanks for the you tube video clip link.
I will grab it and view at home.
I did visit Muenchen in 2008, so it will be interesting to view how it was back in the 1960s.
I am not sure if I went through Dortmund, but I did visit Koeln.
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