NYMR workings - Grosmont to Whitby

[Peter Jordan]

This morning a friend was asking if I knew how NYMR trains are signalled between Grosmont and Whitby. As I haven't worked on the NYMR since 1993 I am not at all familiar with the current arrangements at Grosmont.

Is the connection from the NYMR onto the NR Whitby line still on a ground frame? Is there an auxiliary instrument at Grosmont to allow an NYMR train to obtain a Glaisdale-Whitby token?

If someone can explain what the arrangement is both I and my friend will be very grateful.

Peter Jordan

[Simon Foster]

This morning a friend was asking if I knew how NYMR trains are signalled between Grosmont and Whitby. As I haven't worked on the NYMR since 1993 I am not at all familiar with the current arrangements at Grosmont.

Is the connection from the NYMR onto the NR Whitby line still on a ground frame? Is there an auxiliary instrument at Grosmont to allow an NYMR train to obtain a Glaisdale-Whitby token?

If someone can explain what the arrangement is both I and my friend will be very grateful.

Peter Jordan

I found this collection of photo's & information a while back. It seems to have more to do with internal working, but might provide some clues.
http://martin188.fotoblog.org.uk/c1409141_1.html

[Peter Jordan]

Thanks for that. I've had a look but it doesn't really seem to shed much light on the subject - the ground frame seems to be largely to control movements within NYMR confines.

Don't we have any NYMR signalmen or S&T personnel on the list who can help?

Peter Jordan

[John Hinson]

You seem to know more about it than the rest of us put together, Peter, but if Grosmont is mid-way in a token section I can't see how a regular service could be worked any other way than your first suggestion.

And it would seem this is the case. Confirmation of an "intermediate token instrument" can be found at: http://wapedia.mobi/en/Esk_Valley_Line#3. . (section 3)

Found using Goooooooooooooogle.

John

[Pete2320]

I do know a few NYMR loco crew and intend to ask at the first chance. However I believe the photos show the current arrangement, the GF being released from Grosmont signalbox for internal moves and additionally by the Whitby-Glaisdale token for moves onto the Esk Valley line. At one time it was the intention to control all this east end pointwork directly from the SB and I think the locking was installed so I suspect the numbering of the stop boards reflects the intended signal number. I wonder how many other stop boards have a lever!

Pete

[Jumble Lane]

More evidence of an intermediate token instrument here under "Local Transport Integration" http://www.acorp.uk.com/2007%20Awards%20winners.html;

and here (7th post down page): http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19710&highlight=grosmont+token&page=2

JL

[Andy Overton]

I can answer this one. There are two GFs at Grosmont. One is near the NYMR platform end as is concerned wholly with movements on their metals. The other one is situated next to the connection in the NWR line to Whitby in the Down cess of their line. This 6 lever GF has two release levers, one of which is released by the Glaisdale - Whitby key token, the other which is released by the NYMR Annetts Key. Both releases need to be operated to work the frame. The other 4 levers are points and FPLs working the connections between the two systems.

The NWR line is worked by NSKT. There is an intermediate NSKT machine in a cabinet adjacent to the first mentioned (wholly NYMR) GF near the platform. This can be used to obtain a token to allow release of the GF connections to NWR metals and for authority for the train to enter mid-section. It can also be used to clear this section if a train leaves NWR metals via the NYMR connection.

Hope that explains everything.

[Peter Jordan]

Thanks for that, Andy. It confirms what I had thought the situation must be from the information others had given.

Peter Jordan

[John Hinson]

Just as a follow-up to this, from personal observations by Mrs H and myself from within a train in each direction this week:

1. At Grosmont, as has been said, the ground frame on the NR line is released both by the single-line token and an Annetts Key - we may be mistaken but the latter appears to be kept in a cabinet and remotely released from the box, like a GWR Key Release Instrument.
   A train proceeding towards Whitby gets a main-arm signal to leave the station - I'm not sure how this is worked as there did not appear to be any red levers in the ground frame to control it.
   
2. At Whitby, the NYMR's platform is similarly signalled as a shut-in facility in the single line. This means trains have to stop short approaching the station whilst the ground frame operators (there seemed to be two travelling on every train, although some may have been trainees) walked to the GF to do the business.
   Likewise trains departing either end have to stop clear of the ground frame while it is closed-up. one of the operators has to walk the length of the train to give the driver his token.
   At Whitby platforms there are "start of token section" signs but engines/trains can proceed beyond these up to another sign which prohibits passing beyond without a token. I am slightly mystified by this but I suppose it allows running round. Yet you would need to have a token to ensure you don't conflict with a train in the other platform.
   
3. At Sleights, trains in the direction of Whitby meet a "Stop and Telephone" board (preceded by a distant board) which presumably protects the above shunts onto the single line at Whitby. Drivers do not leave the cab so the telephoning is, I guess, made by mobile phone - to Nunthorpe presumably.
   
4. Not all steam services come straight back from Whitby - one appears to shut in at Whitby and return over an hour later allowing a diesel to arrive and depart.

All in all it seems a frightfully complicated and cumbersome arrangement but I guess it was cheap. It makes the steam services very slow with all the stops, although to our ears the passengers were largely oblivious to the technical reasons and all we heard were comments about running early or waiting for a platform.

There seems little scope for increasing the service for high demand and to my eyes if that became necessary they would need to look at re-doubling and working both as separate single lines. That's just my opinion but some trains were heavily loaded in mid-September so I should think in high summer they are already crowded. I think platform lengths and steep gradients preclude longer trains.

The line is virtually used to capacity because the diesels have to be clear of Glaisdale before steam trains can join the single line. This was noticable on our train which had a scheduled 25 minute wait at Grosmont and it seemed odd to have to wait a fair amount of time after seeing the diesel leave for Middlesbrough.

All trains carry a modern electric headlamp and flashing tail lamps while on NR property, althought these are commonly changed once on NYM metals.

John

[Mike Hodgson]

Mr Pike of this parish was involved in the installation of the instruments. I thought all this had been discussed before, although I can't immediately find another thread.

Strictly speaking Grosmont to Whitby isn't heritage railway signalling of course - it's Network Rail's.

[Andrew G]

My understanding is that locos running round at Whitby can pass the Stop Boards under the authority of the GF operator provided the route is set for Bog Hall sidings (i.e. not onto the single line).

According to the Sectional Appendix a Yellow aspect is displayed for NYMR departures to allow the train to draw onto the single line - as the token will be locked in the GF. There is a reminder board on the single line to remind NYMR departures to collect the token once the GF operator has restored the GF.

Northern Rail are able to stable a unit in their Platform without being in possession of the token and there is a warning board for arriving trains as the line might not be clear to the buffer stops.

I asked in the past about the intermediate stop board at Sleights. This is not related to shunting at Whitby but is there to break the section and allow more efficient use of the Level Crossings in advance of the Stop Board for any users who require permission from the Signaller at Nunthorpe. Otherwise the wait might be excessive as the Signaller won't know the position of the train until it has arrived at Whitby and reported in.

This view might help.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangolle ... SDs-9Kr483

Finally to be 100% accurate the line is worked by “No Signaller” Token System On Single Lines With Remote Crossing Loops (NSTR) rather than NSKT.

[John Hinson]

Interesting, thanks!

The "Not to proceed beyond without token" sign (or whatever it says) is not on that diagram - but is on the single line so by your description of the working of the stop board at Sleights it would seem there is potential for a head-on collision during shunting.

Also, as there are other level crossings on the other side of Sleights surely to achieve equal flexibility on the uphill I would have thought you would need a stop board in the other direction too, but there isn't one.

John

[John Webb]

There is an excellent 'webcam' at Grosmont (see https://www.nymr.co.uk/live-webcam) which gives a view of the station from the gantry opposite the signal box. I have noted that Whitby-bound trains sometimes exchange engines during the long layover, and all of them seem to do so on their return.

[John Hinson]

There is an excellent 'webcam' at Grosmont (see https://www.nymr.co.uk/live-webcam) which gives a view of the station from the gantry opposite the signal box. I have noted that Whitby-bound trains sometimes exchange engines during the long layover, and all of them seem to do so on their return.

Interesting. Neither journey I made did so.

John

[Bob Davies]

I think the main reason is to do with whether the engine has a main line ticket or not.