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Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Signalling on heritage railways

Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby Keith » Sat May 14, 2011 11:52 am

I can see that the signalling and the diagram have evolved to reach their present state and I'm sure Dom (or whoever's responsible) will update the diagram and take account of some of our comments. I have one or two:

I think we have previously discussed the arrangement of signals similar to 10 and 11. On NR, the rule is that the top signal applies to the left hand route. In the past some railways applied the top signal to the principal route, and this is certainly suitable when the lower arm is a subsidiary. There is nothing to stop a heritage railway choosing whatever rule it likes, but, if the arms are both going to be full size, I would always recommend following NR practice, as many of the drivers and signalmen will be people who also work on NR.

I think the point ends drawn in opposite positions may be the result of part of the track having been (accidentally?) moved on the computer screen, as the curve of 15B (trap) points seems to be sitting on top of the straight.

Numbering the frame backwards may simply be a matter of drawing the signal box upside down - is the frame at the front or the back of the box?

The numbers in the bottom left corner seem to be out of date - I count 15 working levers. I also can't find the 19th lever - maybe it's at the 19th green? :roll:

I agree with the DI about "normally off" probably being the wrong wording.

P.S. It looks as if Dom is already dealing with some of these comments, but I'll post this anyway for the sake of the other comments.
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby kestreleyes » Sat May 14, 2011 12:25 pm

:shock: argh!! youre right, ive missed 19 off the spares list too, will update!

im considering calling this an independance check ya knows!!! :lol: :lol:

the box is facing the track,affords good view onto the bridge,the frame is lever 1 to the left yet item 1 now lies to the right due to the moving off the box!,was to be sited facing the track about where the wording for king lever was placed.

as you say,id rather follow the correct convention,else good practice becomes diluted and eventually would disapear in the future from the scene,especially with the modern scene,hard times,costs on Heritgae lines etcetera,why cut corners!------i slap myself on the wrist for not spotting the signals 10/11 wrong way round on post,ive put the top left route to the top of post and next right next down etc,doll at base for one move only which drivers should know as theyve signed the route!!

as a colleague of mine once said,we learn from your superior knowledge,il know everything once i pass away as i cant learn owt more then,till then i lay prone before the throne of authority!!!.

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
yep i floated the van in sandbach lake once
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Sat May 14, 2011 6:49 pm

OK, I think that removes most of the problems that people have raised. I'm still not convinced about how things stand with the box switched out though.

As I understand it now, the lower arm 11 will now be a main arm, it will read to the loop and it will be locked in the off position with the box switched out, although 15 crossover will lie for the headshunt. OK, so that means you have to open the box, reverse 15 and clear 4 signal for a train to Matlock Platform, or 16 for one the other way. So you are not treating 4 as a running shunt, ie requiring it to be cleared before clearing the Home Signal to the Loop. In that case shouldn't it be a full size running signal? Likewise the reflectorised distant board leads to 16 disc, though I suppose the Stop Board might be considered to act as a fixed Home Signal in that direction. I'm curious as to the proposed wording on these boards.

As you have to open the box to reverse the crossover for a through train and presumably to exchange the staffs, is there any real advantage in having the Loop signals off when the box is closed - apart perhaps from keeping the bobby dry when he arrives by rail?
On the other hand, I can see operational merit in being able to run a service to Riverside Platform with the box switched out. However it sounds as though you don't need that as your plan is that in future the normal service will run through to Matlock Platform leaving Riverside Platform largely redundant.

I'm probably being exceptionally thick here, but I don't really see how the divisible staff works either. There are no signals at Matlock Platform, and presumably no signalman to block out - it looks more like a glorified siding than a single line needing a staff and I would expect to see One Train Working.

So why is it divisible - do you want to send a second train into the occupied platform?? If so, how will the signalman at Riverside know the first train has arrived complete and is not about to move, so that he can safely give second part of staff to second train? Or is it something to do with the GFs? I infer from your comments that Network Rail normally hold this divisible staff when you're no there. So where is it kept/how do get them to release it when you need it? Is it like an annetts key they release remotely? Do you need it to release 15 crossover? It obviously can't lock the King lever, as you say you are still able to operate the King lever to open the box and reset the route for Riverside Platform.

The GF at Matlock Platform is released by the Ambergate Token; I can see that its 3 lever should be so released (but lie normally as a trap rather than as shown). But shouldn't its 2 lever also be released by your Divisible Staff - otherwise what's to stop Network Rail reversing 2 crossover onto the main line whilst you're running a shuttle on your line to Matlock Platform?

Does 4 also read from the Loop to the headshunt? I can't see why such a move should be needed, unless you envisage running round a train standing in the Loop rather than Riverside platform. If it does read to the headshunt, I could envisage a collision with the stops if a driver mistakenly assumed he was routed to Matlock Platform as usual (though of course he should have realised he didn't have the divisible staff).
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby kestreleyes » Sun May 15, 2011 5:45 am

the wording on NR`s board are not the usual standard,ours follow traditional "stop obtain staff and permission to proceed" convention.

as you note due to the fact that NR could be shunting upto our stop board at any time,the traps arent normally set for through running from us to them or vice versa,so you have to open up riverside in some form regardless of santa,normal days operations etc, thats the price you pay for running down someone elses railway,at least its a small price, the only benefit of the layout at that end is that you must have the staff to go forwards,so theres a theoretical half mile gap between you and NR for any overlapping protection, some of the problems with operating in the line between us and matlock have been overcome by thoughts,suggestions and ideas from NR s side,some good ones at that,however at that end of the layout the key thing is that we have to live with not just what we wanted to signal but what we can signal in connection with NR`s line too,the simpler the better for all,eg keep it basic,mechanical and very little off.

the signs and distant board are subject to some meetings we will be having soon,so may change,or not,as its NRs side its their call.
yep i floated the van in sandbach lake once
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Sun May 15, 2011 10:59 am

kestreleyes wrote: at that end of the layout the key thing is that we have to live with not just what we wanted to signal but what we can signal in connection with NR`s line too,the simpler the better for all,eg keep it basic,mechanical and very little off.

the signs and distant board are subject to some meetings we will be having soon,so may change,or not,as its NRs side its their call.


Yes, you will get the benefit of NR's thinking there, and obviously they will not let you do anything that endangers their bit.
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby petwall » Sun May 15, 2011 11:18 am

Updated plan for Riverside is now on Flickr

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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby Chris Osment » Sun May 15, 2011 12:44 pm

Errr....below signal 5 it states "Ground Frame 1 released by divisible staff" - but what GF, as there is none shown in that part of the diagram ??
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby Fay Singpoint » Sun May 15, 2011 1:17 pm

Hello Pete,

An "interesting" diagram as the numbering seems a bit all over the place :?

For starters.... ( I think that pun has been done already)

I have to agree with others regarding the way signals are shown off when the box is closed. The diagram should show depict signal arm positions when the levers are normal in the frame. The fact you have a King Lever (or Gear Lever depending where you come from) makes no difference.

If the St Andrew's Cross symbols adjacent to signals 5 & 6 are supposed to represent telephones, then you don't need Rule 55 diamonds. I've seen that mistake made in the past on quite a few preserved railways.

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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Sun May 15, 2011 4:08 pm

Chris Osment wrote:Errr....below signal 5 it states "Ground Frame 1 released by divisible staff" - but what GF, as there is none shown in that part of the diagram ??


No, but there is a GF matching that description at the other end of the loop - surely that note just duplicates the reference there?



Fay Singpoint wrote:
If the St Andrew's Cross symbols adjacent to signals 5 & 6 are supposed to represent telephones, then you don't need Rule 55 diamonds. I've seen that mistake made in the past on quite a few preserved railways.

F


He's not the only one who didn't appreciate you weren't supposed to have both together. Where both phone and TC are provided, do I take it the fireman is supposed to use the phone rather than the TC to remind the signalman of his presence?

Would that also apply to the Fireman's Call Plunger? If so, there wouldn't seem to be much point in having one at 10/11/12 signals


The Staff section to Darley Dale starts not at the Starter but at the stop board/limit of shunt, which is outside the protection of the Home Signals. Is that usual? There's no shunt signal from the Loop to that board, so would 6 be cleared for a loco running round?


Although 19 has now been added to the list of spares, the Working/Spares/Total still doesn't reconcile to the actual usage.
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby Chris Osment » Sun May 15, 2011 8:20 pm

I'm also puzzled :) still by the arrangement of point and trap 2 in the GF at the Riverside end of the siding, which is drawn with the trap closed when 2 normal. So if point 2 is reversed, then the trap is open - so you can't move from the single line to the siding or vice-versa :? And if 2 is normal, but a NR movement along the sidings SPADs the stop board, it could go thru' the closed trap and trail the points locked by 1 - messy!

Or is it just a case of a mis-alignment of lines in the drawing?
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby Keith » Sun May 15, 2011 9:57 pm

Chris Osment wrote:Or is it just a case of a mis-alignment of lines in the drawing?
That was my suggestion a few posts back, along with 15B, which would be part of the same misalignment.
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby kestreleyes » Mon May 16, 2011 6:15 am

aha more questions,and hopefully more answers!

indeed the trap off the gf is shown closed,should be open,we will ammend as such to correct.

the ground frame isnt shown,it may yet go and be replaced by a bolted fpl,will see what NR say,then ammend drg again,till then il make a note next the point and remove notation for 1 and 2 as such

the start of section board is located there to allow the option of the original train loco to drop off back and onto the train leaving the original top n tail shunter-loco behind through an in section shunt just over the bridge,which requires both locos to be just off the bridge together while the rear one becomes the front one and vice versa ,an odd and complicated move,it could have been provided with a shunt and outer home though more work,for all concerned,we do have limited number of posts and bits to signal an already complex layout for what was originally planned to be nothing more than two ground frames worked by the crews!

the drivers plunger to confirm theyve come to a stand clear of the other locos space and then the other loco can be instructed past the signal,bit of an odd move,having found a way it used to be done elsewhere by phone and board we adopted it as it was more simpler than adding complexity to the layout, especially as it was a move that wouldnt happen often, the siggie would also keep the staff for the darley section till the moves were completed then issuing it to the train.

that also gives the reason for the phone, whilst under normal working the train driver is aware the siggie knows hes there with the tc, with the shunt round move the phone and drivers plunger come into use.


basically the rarely used move is;
1.front shunter loco drops over bridge to just before board,presses plunger when at stand, as tc only shows occupancy not that loco is at stand,when done;
2.rear loco instructed to pass into section coming to a stand short of obstruction,gets on phone to say all moves completed both locos stood now
3.12 signal cleared back into platform for the shunt off original loco onto stock,
4.when done,top n tail loco cleared back into loop towards box,4 cleared and drops into headshunt.
yep i floated the van in sandbach lake once
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby kestreleyes » Mon May 16, 2011 6:23 am

will also alter spares total,indeed it should show now 15 in use,4 spares,total 19

thanks for spotting all the errors in me drawing chaps,i should add your names to the botom now shouldnt I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D
yep i floated the van in sandbach lake once
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby kestreleyes » Mon May 16, 2011 6:31 am

have updated again chaps,version 3 hopefully updated later on today!!!!!!!
yep i floated the van in sandbach lake once
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Re: Matlock n Ex-Luffenham signalbox

Unread postby Mike Stone » Mon May 16, 2011 10:01 am

1,top n tail,drop loco off back at riverside.
2.run round at riverside if terminating there
3.do the model railway classic, drop off top n tail loco ,drop original round and back again,so you keep youre original loco on the front,takes time,and may not be used, the layout is best suitable for what we needed and what we could do with the land available

;
So my understanding that the inwards loco would be left at Matlock P.2 was incorrect?
'

;
Also I still don't see what prevents the NR GF being released when a PR train is in the section - surely it isn't acceptable to just issue an instruction "the staff must be in your possesion"?
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