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Collision in Germany

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Collision in Germany

Unread postby JRB » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:00 pm

What is the signalling system on the line where two Meridian trains collided?
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby davidwoodcock » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:06 pm

Modern, as on the trains, and the collision should have been impossible!

The German system in use on that line is effectively a direction lever one so that section signals can only be cleared in the direction predetermined by the position of the direction switches - and the trains should have only been able to pass a section signal that was clear.

A report on Belgian francophone TV news tonight suggested that "human error" was responsible, but human error should have been impossible, unless it is another "Clapham".
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby michiel » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:01 am

A post on a german railway enthousiast forum (http://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?2,7720582,page=9 suggests that one of the trains was running late. The Fahrdienstleiter (despatcher) then maybe overruled the danger signal for the opposite running train because of a supposed signal failure (this was happening in the morning peak hour), giving the driver of said train an order to ignore the signal (the german site calls this an Ersatzsignal (something like a calling-on in the old days) or a Bef (Befehl: ignore said signal, it is wrong). Anyway, it is strange that this could happen, as the Fahrdienstleiter should be able to check the block section, and he should not lightly overrule the "occupied" indication. Check the forum for more precise evidence.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Mike Hodgson » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:27 am

The postings on that site seem to consist of several different speculative scenarios
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:33 am

Hello,


some to the Signal Boxes there:

Bad Aibling is a electric Relay Signal Box Type Siemens Sp DR S60, The Neighboor in Rosenheim is also from the same Type.
It is a Single Track Line between Bad Aibling and Rosenheim secured by Block System.

So normaly you could not send a Train on Starter Signal (Hauptsignal) from both ends on the Line, because one of them are locked by Block (Erlaubnis).

There is only one way to override this, to give Train order (schriftlichen Befehl) or more common on electric Boxes, use of the subsidiary Signal
Zs 1 (Ersatzsignal) witch replaces the Train order.But before this the Signal is given you must check the Line with the so called Räumungsprüfung with the Signal man on the othe Box.This had to be write down in the Train register book.After that he could turn on the Zs1.This is supervised by a mechanical Register mechanism at the Push Button (ErsGT) on the Panel.

For more we must wait of the official Commission.




-
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby michiel » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:33 pm

This link to the german press agency gives new evidence:

http://www.rnd-news.de/Exklusive-News/Meldungen/Februar-2016/Zugunglueck-Ermittler-gehen-von-menschlichem-Versagen-aus

It seems that the signalman at Bad Aibling indeed gave the Ersatzsignal (calling-on) to the train which should have waited for the late train to arrive at Bad Aibling. Disturbing news.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:29 pm

Hello,

It seems that the signalman at Bad Aibling indeed gave the Ersatzsignal (calling-on) to the train which should have waited for the late train to arrive at Bad Aibling


Maybe......but there is something that didn`t match with this theory....with Ersatzsignal the Train Driver receive the Orders

1.Pass the Signal at Danger
2.go ahead with medium speed and on sight

But both Trains where running with Timetable speed...

We had to wait of the Black Box (INDUSI Register mechanism ) recording of the Train movement.
In Case of Ersatzsignal the Train Driver must operated a Push Button so called Befehls-Taste (Train Order Button) by slow passing the active Track
Magnet of the INDUSI.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Danny252 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:48 pm

[...]After that he could turn on the Zs1. This is supervised by a mechanical Register mechanism at the Push Button (ErsGT) on the Panel.


Does this mean that the use of the Zs1 will be recorded automatically? I think that's what you were saying here, and it would be what I would expect for what is essentially an emergency release (in British terms).
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby michiel » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:43 pm

@Frank,

Why is an Ausfahrtsignal reading to a single track line equipped with an Ersatzsignal ? In France and in Holland there is a distinction between stop signals which may be passed at danger (by regulated order) and those that are absolutely forbidden to pass at danger. In France this is signalled by the F (franchissable) c.q. the Nf (non-franchissable) plate. In Holland a permissive stop signal has a P plate. The idea is that a stop signal which for example only protects a block boundary may be passed with care, whereas an absolute signal protects a potential obstruction, like a drawbridge or a junction, or indeed a single track section. The only reason such an Ersatzsignal should be permitted would be a short inroad inside the protection of the home signal, for instance to reverse a loco around a train. I do not understand why it was present at this particular signal.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby hmmueller » Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:09 pm

Well, why do British points not have blade locks? Why ..... whatever else? Because all working railways found a combination of technology and rules that would in all conceivable circumstances not lead to an accident. Practically all exit signals in Austria and Germany have Ersatzsignale, as line block systems are typically one of the systems with a somewhat higher failure rate (in comparison to station block systems or route interlocking overall). There is a watertight process how to run operations when the line block system fails, including how Ersatzsignale are to be operated; for details, please read the documents on SpDrS60 interlockings and the respective Dienstvorschriften (I am not sure I would like to translate them for you - they are available at various websites, and google does a more or less acceptable job of translating them).

However, as with all "watertight" processes designed for "all conceivable circumstances," if there are humans in the loop, we sometimes find out that they do not act as expected.

Then we have to more or less radically rethink the processes and the technology - preferably in an upeards compatible way, i.e., we cannot revise all rules and/or technology from ground up, but must patch the changes onto the existing technology, the existing rules, and also the existing "mindset" - the historically existing and empirically found aspects that make a signalling and operations systems "what it is".

Yes, that might be a broaldy general answer - but I do not think that asking a critical question like "Why is an Ausfahrtsignal equipped with an Ersatzsignal" without understanding the complete system of which this decision is a part is very helpful.

H.M.

P.S. On my website, I try to collect photos, descriptions and (my own) explanations of railway safety systems from more than one country - because precisely these attempte to understand more than one safety philosophy and their concrete implementations have led me to the humble conclusion that one has to understand quite a large scope of the operations and signalling system and philosophy of every single system before one can even hope to start to compare such systems; and much more of that is necessary to have critical thoughts about one system or the other.
==== Austrian signal boxes and interlockings (German and English), with some looks beyond ====
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby hmmueller » Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:20 pm

Danny252 wrote:
[...]After that he could turn on the Zs1. This is supervised by a mechanical Register mechanism at the Push Button (ErsGT) on the Panel.


Does this mean that the use of the Zs1 will be recorded automatically? I think that's what you were saying here, and it would be what I would expect for what is essentially an emergency release (in British terms).


Yes. In older installations, a simple eletromechanical counter will count up by one, and the Fdl has to enter the number with a short reason plus signature into a special register. In newer installations, a locked-up printer will print details about the signal and the time to paper. None of this means that the Fdl would be prevented from operating the signal; but at all times it is clear to him or her that he or she is fully repsonsible for the action and all consequences during his or her duty. That's all that is provided.

H.M.
==== Austrian signal boxes and interlockings (German and English), with some looks beyond ====
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby JRB » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:59 pm

Thanks everyone for the very comprehensive information. I will just say in reply to one point that there must be SOME way of admitting a train to an occupied section for rescuing a failed train or for engineering work. We must wait for next information to be released.
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Frank » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:48 pm

Hello Dany252,

Does this mean that the use of the Zs1 will be recorded automatically?


Yes, the Subsidiary Signal Zs1 (Ersatzsignal) was recorded from it`s introducing into the Railways in the 1930th -Years.

The first was a simple mechanical counting mechanism in combination with the Push Button mechanical cupled.

This Type of recording was used on mechanical, electro-mechanical and electric Boxes until now.

Here:
http://www.bahnbilder-leipzig.de/htm/stw-fwh5.htm

you could see a Panel from a electric Relay Signal Box.
The coloured Squares are the so called Gruppentastenblocks ,in the Red Squares you could see Ers the Counter for the
Ersatzsignal.
Also you could see the other Counters for Safety Important Devices.At start of the Shift the Signal man had to check this Counters in
a Book like the Train register Book.

The Colors of the Squares are standing for :
-Red = Signals
-Blue = Points
-Green = Route settings
-Yellow = Level Crossing
-Brown = Axle Counters (Block)
-dark grey = Line Block
-light grey = Panel operating



Hello michiel,

like i wrote further, the Ersatzsignal replaces the Train order here in germany and is in use since the 1930-Years.
It is also since the INDUSI was updated to the electronic PZB restriting the Train Driver for a Time in his speed.
If you as a Train Driver override the active PZB-Magnet of a Signal at Danger, the PZB-Eelectronic restricts
the speed of the Train to 40 Km/h, In the Cab a Horn sound come up and on the PZB Display the Befehl 40 is
illuminated.After a distance (depending on what kind of Train it is (Freight/Passenger)) the supervising ends.



For a view of the LIne here in this Youtube-Video you could see the Track between the Station in Cab-View
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y04O09B8vy0

1 Hour Video ! Fast Internet-Connection needed

At Time 28:05 Minutes in the Video ist the Point of Collision
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Re: Collision in Germany/Result of Interogation

Unread postby Frank » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:37 pm

Hello,


today at 14:00 Hours the Investigation come to an end.

The Fahrdienstleiter (Signal man) from Bad Aibling had used the Ersatzsignal Zs1 (Subsidiary Signal) for one Train. :(
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Re: Collision in Germany

Unread postby Wilkinstown » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:23 pm

So in summary the signaller at one end of the line was able to clear a subsidiary signal authorising a second train to enter the occupied single line section. This leads to a number of questions

1) What conditions are required to be satisfied before such a subsidiary signal can be cleared ?

2) When a driver proceeds on the authority of such a subsidiary signal, what restrictions apply ?

3) How does the signaller clearing the subsidiary signal know that the single line is unoccupied ?
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