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TCB- degraded working

Current and future British signalling (UK except Northern Ireland)

Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:47 pm

S&TEngineer wrote:Thinking a bit more about it now (well it was some 40 years ago....) there might of been a 'Tail Lamp' man at the exit signal, but I'm sure that when I cab rode through one of the sections, signal sighting, that the ticket wasn't given up at the exit but was just thrown away by the driver?

There always was a 'Taillampman' during my time but I understand that now this is not so because all trains are fitted although how that fits in with the 10 car IEP that de-configured the other day and thought it was a car I'm not sure.
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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby RDNA » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:43 pm

Fast Line Floyd wrote:There always was a 'Taillampman' during my time but I understand that now this is not so because all trains are fitted although how that fits in with the 10 car IEP that de-configured the other day and thought it was a car I'm not sure.


Graham, as I understand current TBW, after the exit Handsignalman has collected the TBW ticket and the train has gone forward he then calls the box again to confirm that said train has passed beyond the overlap distance 'complete with tail lamp'.

However Rob Morrel's original post implies that this will not be so under the proposed "Emergency Special Working".

I suppose you could require the drivers to report 'Train Arrived Complete' by GSMR at a location beyond the 'Degraded Section'.

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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:02 pm

Indeed, it still is (I have just spent sometime trawling through the rulebook on RSSB's website) I was under the impression that the requirement to give up the ticket had been withdrawn as we were talking about this when I still worked for RSSB.
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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby Mad Mac » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:26 pm

Been following this with interest and have a couple of comments.

In 1985, something like this was used between Elderslie and Beith North following some issues with getting the new signalling signed in. An ODR, as we used to call them, was stationed at Paisley panel and as each train passed Beith North, the signalman there would report it as complete by phone. The ODR would verbally offer trains to Beith North. I’m unaware if there was an actual procedure in place at that time or if this was something that was come up with “ad hoc” to overcome the specific issues encountered.

Los Angeles Metro uses a similar system whereby the driver is given a “Clearance Card” by radio detailing the limits of the degraded working. The driver fills out an actual card with the details and, I believe, has to hand it back in at the end of the shift. The conversations are routinely recorded.
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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby StevieG » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:50 am

S&TEngineer wrote:Thinking a bit more about it now (well it was some 40 years ago....) there might of been a 'Tail Lamp' man at the exit signal, but I'm sure that when I cab rode through one of the sections, signal sighting, that the ticket wasn't given up at the exit but was just thrown away by the driver?
I would not be surprised if, and presume that it nowadays is the case that, any written authority (whether handed to driver by an operating official, or driver-completed from dictation) is retained in some way after end of validity, as potentially important evidence in the event of any mishap/incident or 'near miss'/ irregularity.
Fast Line Floyd wrote:There always was a 'Taillampman' during my time but I understand that now this is not so because all trains are fitted although how that fits in with the 10 car IEP that de-configured the other day and thought it was a car I'm not sure.
...... or how it would fit in with a failed EMU being assisted from the front by a fellow Class 321 unit, only moveable after the EBV was operated on the defective one, and which unit was then left behind in a not-continuously-track-circuited section when the only-mechanically-coupled units became uncoupled whilst running, of which the driver of the assisting (hauling) EMU was unaware until an alert by other staff in the immediate area who knew the details of the rescue plan, led to him being stopped.
BZOH

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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby John Hinson » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:52 am

StevieG wrote:...... or how it would fit in with a failed EMU being assisted from the front by a fellow Class 321 unit, only moveable after the EBV was operated on the defective one, and which unit was then left behind in a not-continuously-track-circuited section when the only-mechanically-coupled units became uncoupled whilst running, of which the driver of the assisting (hauling) EMU was unaware until an alert by other staff in the immediate area who knew the details of the rescue plan, led to him being stopped.

I don't really understand yout point but to my eyes It would fit in fine. That's why drivers are always instructed to proceed cautiously across any track circuit failure.

The reason tickets are used in the circumstances described here is because signalmen are not permitted to instruct a driver to pass more than one signal at danger at a time. That is why it isn't mission-critical to hand the ticket in after preceeding through the section.

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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby StevieG » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:23 pm

John Hinson wrote:
StevieG wrote:...... or how it would fit in with a failed EMU being assisted from the front by a fellow Class 321 unit, only moveable after the EBV was operated on the defective one, and which unit was then left behind in a not-continuously-track-circuited section when the only-mechanically-coupled units became uncoupled whilst running, of which the driver of the assisting (hauling) EMU was unaware until an alert by other staff in the immediate area who knew the details of the rescue plan, led to him being stopped.
" I don't really understand yout point but to my eyes It would fit in fine. That's why drivers are always instructed to proceed cautiously across any track circuit failure. .... "
Sorry about that John.
It was meant as a follow-on from FLF's point, which I understood as regarding an IEP train which apparently lost its knowledge of its consist/ formation (and more) data (including individual vehicles' braking system monitoring?) as against latter day reliance on the principle of modern trains being 'fully fitted' (so to speak), so no need for concern about checking for a tail lamp on a still moving train as it must be complete, else, if divided both portions would come to a stand.
My point was nothing to do with TC failure (there was no continuous TC'g in this case, it was a OTW-'No Train Staff' section operated by transducer (treadle equivalent) and sequential operation of two TCs) or of any as-installed signalling equipment, but was about one empty 'rescue' EMU assisting a failed EMU out of a long rural section by the crews having made the latter moveable by isolating its brakes, then the driver of the combined formation being unaware that during the movement the units had parted company, leaving the failed one behind while he continued driving until stopped by the signaller on receiving report(s) from other staff.
Reliance on the assumption of a moving train being complete was in that case a fallacy, and undetectable by a remotely located signaller.
(Gosh this has become very long-winded : I apologise, my point probably wasn't worth raising - it was about 25 years ago involving then modern trains : Any similar potential possibility with current day trains is probably best known only to those who design, maintain, repair, and drive them; a group of which I certainly am not a member.)
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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby Ashley Hill » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:50 pm

If a multiple unit fails and necessitates the EBV/EBS to be operated then either the driver of the failed train or Guard if in multiple is instructed to ride in the rearmost leading cab and observe the train. Should it divide they stop the rear portion with the parking brake and protect the train. Any how it a tail lamp man was provided he would not see a tail lamp on the rear of the leading part of the division and that should raise his awareness of the situation.
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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby GarthTilt » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:25 pm

Back in the 1990's Birmingham New Street lost Soho Relay Room after an arson attack. Soho D.E.D. was emptied of stock, most of which were out stabled overnight in New Street station. Soho Bank (Soho to Perry Barr) plus Soho D.E.D. Up and Down Loops and Monument Lane Loop were all secured out of use. Ticket Working with staff stabled at both ends were instituted over both roads which lasted for several weeks until the Relay Room was restored. Temporary cabins were provided on site. That was twenty years ago.
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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby StevieG » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:34 am

Ashley Hill wrote: "Any how it a tail lamp man was provided he would not see a tail lamp on the rear of the leading part of the division and that should raise his awareness of the situation. "
.... which also comes back to the point I was trying (too hard for it to have been worth all the effort I'm thinking to make, that if a tail lamp man or equivalent is now/is in future, not to be provided on the premise that a moving/able to move by self-traction power, train must be complete, coincident with an effective method of train detection not being in operation owing to a cause of degraded TCB working; then is there a possibility of a part-train without own trainborne power for communications being left in a section that becomes regarded as clear for another train ?
BZOH

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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby John Hinson » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:19 am

StevieG wrote:
Ashley Hill wrote: "Any how it a tail lamp man was provided he would not see a tail lamp on the rear of the leading part of the division and that should raise his awareness of the situation. "
.... which also comes back to the point I was trying (too hard for it to have been worth all the effort I'm thinking to make, that if a tail lamp man or equivalent is now/is in future, not to be provided on the premise that a moving/able to move by self-traction power, train must be complete, coincident with an effective method of train detection not being in operation owing to a cause of degraded TCB working; then is there a possibility of a part-train without own trainborne power for communications being left in a section that becomes regarded as clear for another train ?

If a track circuit shows occupied, for whatever reason, it should not be regarded as clear.

As I said before, that is why drivers are instructed to proceed cautiously.

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Re: TCB- degraded working

Unread postby StevieG » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:51 pm

John Hinson wrote:If a track circuit shows occupied, for whatever reason, it should not be regarded as clear.

As I said before, that is why drivers are instructed to proceed cautiously.

John
Apologies John.
I can't disagree with that, of course.
I seem to have become unintentionally fixated on the situation of working traffic through a planned absence of signalling over quite a distance, unintentionally temporarily overlooking that a simpleTC failure can also necessitate a form of TCB degraded working.
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