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GNoSR Layout

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Re: Railway Modeller now mentions this Forum!

Unread postby 1ngram » Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:42 pm

RM suggests this forum can be used by dumb modellers like me to find out where to put signals on their layout - so here I am.

My GNSR layout of circa 1917 consists of a through station with one siding as below

-----------------------------------------------]
/ PLATFORM AND STATION BUILDINGS ETC HERE ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- \ /
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A three way point at one end and a point at the other.

There are fiddle yards at each end hidden by, at one end, a bridge and at the other the forest.

I've reached the point where I need to put pole signals on but no amount of reading both on this site and elsewhere can penetrate my skull as to where I need signals.
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Re: Railway Modeller now mentions this Forum!

Unread postby 1ngram » Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:52 pm

O dear its not come out in the post how I typed it out. O me miserum. Anyway the station is entered to the west by a three way point . The north turnoff ends in a siding, the centre and south lines go straight thru and at the East end of the station they connect south to centre (going from west to east) via facing points. Its a simple layout but where to put the signals?
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Re: Railway Modeller now mentions this Forum!

Unread postby Peter Jordan » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:16 pm

It will make things much easier, and enable a more detailed reply to yoru query, if you can post an actual diagram of the track layout.

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Re: Railway Modeller now mentions this Forum!

Unread postby 1ngram » Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:32 pm

I'll have to find out how to do that. Clearly my attempt to set it out using Word hasn't worked and my written description isn't ideal. I will try to find some other way.
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Hornby Magazine - 'Stop Press' mentions this Forum

Unread postby 1ngram » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:55 pm

Image

If I have done all this right you should see the layout of my Great North of Scotland station Dundarg.

Any help with placement of signals gratefully accepted.
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Re: Hornby Magazine - 'Stop Press' mentions this Forum

Unread postby Peter Jordan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:32 am

Wher is the platform located? Also, is the 'siding' just a siding or a bay platform intended to be used by passenger trains?

You have also slightly confused matters by placing the diagram in a differently-headed section to that where your original query appears.

With regard to the letter in BRM, it mentions an incident witnessed at an exhibition where a guest operator stopped a train closely (but correctly) up to a signal. An incoming train then 'sideswiped' the standing train because the signal the other train was standing at had not been placed correctly. But the 'experienced' operator then siad the fault was that of the guest operator for stopping too close to the signal!

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Re: Hornby Magazine - 'Stop Press' mentions this Forum

Unread postby 1ngram » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:24 am

Sorry about the incorrect placement of the item - I was so overjoyed at getting the diagram right I confused which magazine was at the head of the section I had initially written to. Culpa Mea!

The platform and station building is between the siding and the line that goes straight through the diagram. So its a bay platform.

Ken
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GNoSR Layout

Unread postby MRFS » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:49 pm

1ngram

Is this what you meant:

Image

Where would you want the signalbox to be - any of 1 - 4 or on the platform?

Conversely, are there two platforms:

Image

Or an island:

Image


There will be minimal differences between an island platform and a twin platform layout, but if it is a single platform, with a goods only loop that will make a difference.
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Re: GNoSR Layout

Unread postby Danny252 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:15 am

The platform and station building is between the siding and the line that goes straight through the diagram. So its a bay platform.


...implies either layout #1 or #2 (I won't hazard a guess as to whether the lack of mentioning a platform on the loop line was intentional or not!).
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Re: GNoSR Layout

Unread postby MRFS » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:03 am

Danny252 wrote:
The platform and station building is between the siding and the line that goes straight through the diagram. So its a bay platform.


...implies either layout #1 or #2 (I won't hazard a guess as to whether the lack of mentioning a platform on the loop line was intentional or not!).


Yes - but we won't really know until 1ngram replies - experience has taught me never to attempt the second-guess - even though I can't at this point in time remember if the GNoS liked their flaps or their swivels.
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Re: GNoSR Layout

Unread postby 1ngram » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:53 am

Its layout 1 with a signal box at 3.

The station was originally a single line with the siding but at the start of the Great War the Navy upgraded their facilities on that coast and requested that the loop be put in so that troop and ammuinition trains could reach their coastal terminus (one stop further to the right) without having to wait for slower civilian trains to clear the line. The loop meant they could bypass the station altogether. Bobby Fisher's plan to invade North Germany in 1915 has meant increased through traffic in both directions as the build up for the invasion of both men and materiel continues. (Of course in real life this proposal was eventually abandoned in favour of Gallipoli)

This conceit allows me to use engines and wagons from other railway companies as well as my GNoS stock.

I've also toyed with a second platform based signal box at 1 but only because I found a nice kit for one. I've no idea if the layout of the station would justify such an extravagance.
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Re: GNoSR Layout

Unread postby MRFS » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:00 pm

How about this:

Image

Signals X are there because you seemed to indicate full two way running on both lines - if that isn't the case then they can be removed. Signal O can also be the starter for the platform track if there is the full two way running. You could also have bracket signals instead of single-post twin arm - the GNoS tended to site/sight its home signals quite close to the loop points, if you wanted a bracket and an elevated disc at the left hand end (of the loop as drawn), you could always use signals 3/9/14 at Craigellachie as an inspiration LINK.

HTH.
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Re: GNoSR Layout

Unread postby Danny252 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:33 pm

Is there any reason you decided not to include the option of a leftbound starter on the platform line? It seems fairly restrictive in terms of operations, as a leftbound train stopping in the station would have to be held there if a rightbound train were en route.

Also, with the leftbound home, I would've thought (with my limited knowledge) that the route for the loop would have the top arm (top-left bottom-right rule with arms/disks). Is that overruled by some practise relating to the fact the rightmost route is the main?

I've also toyed with a second platform based signal box at 1 but only because I found a nice kit for one. I've no idea if the layout of the station would justify such an extravagance.


I would say no - it's a fairly simple passing loop. Perhaps an excuse to add an extra station to your layout? :)
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Re: GNoSR Layout

Unread postby 1ngram » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:40 pm

Many thanks. One question. What is the thing that looks like a 10 with a vertical line through the 0 or the same reversed in the siding? I will use the X signals as well to represent both ways through running.
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Re: GNoSR Layout

Unread postby MRFS » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:42 pm

1ngram wrote:Many thanks. One question. What is the thing that looks like a 10 with a vertical line through the 0 or the same reversed in the siding? I will use the X signals as well to represent both ways through running.


That's a shunt signal - at this remove I'm not sure if the GNoS used flaps (see Chris Osment's avatar) or discs.

Danny252 wrote:Is there any reason you decided not to include the option of a leftbound starter on the platform line? It seems fairly restrictive in terms of operations, as a leftbound train stopping in the station would have to be held there if a rightbound train were en route.


Yes - you have to put yourself in the mindset of the engineers - if this was a 'money no object' installation then there would have been signals everywhere for everything - I assume that there would have been some government cash to do this, but not a limitless fund, so the loop starting signal for leftbound trains would have been transferred to the refurbished loop for navy trains - there is also the possibility that any leftbound train could be held in the platform waiting on a tablet - there are example of this elsewhere.

Danny252 wrote:Also, with the leftbound home, I would've thought (with my limited knowledge) that the route for the loop would have the top arm (top-left bottom-right rule with arms/disks). Is that overruled by some practise relating to the fact the rightmost route is the main?


Again, if you have the idea that there was some money but not a limitless pot, the quickest way to do this layout would be to add another signal to the lattice post underneath the pre-existing arm, leaving the old upper arm still applying along the main, with detection and wire runs left intact. DTMS?

At the end of the day, this is just a serving suggestion and I'm fairly sure is representative of GNoS practice, but doesn't have a forest of signals everywhere. If it were real life, then I suspect the signalbox would be on the same side of the tracks, but at 1 in the first location, using handsignals to control movements into the siding.
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