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Cylindrical Catch Handles - Brandon

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Re: Cylindrical Catch Handles - Brandon

Unread postby John Hinson » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:47 pm

Roger Bell wrote:I know I am sounding a bit pedantic here all in the cause of a nice uniform line of catch handles - Brandon does look exactly like a Saxby and Farmer 1888 duplex whereas the GN duplex ( according to the book ) is basically a S&F 1905 duplex but with bent catch handles. On the previous page, the GN Tappet frame is stated that it " could be mistaken for an 1888 S&F duplex".

I'm not sure how it can be said that this type of frame can be mistaken for an 1888 duplex frame because the latter have a distinctive rib in the quadrants between every lever that I don't think appears on any other type of frame. Certainly Brandon did not have such a rib.

As for the 1905 Duplex, that's a different kettle of fish and I very much suspect it shares dimensions with the later Westinghouse A series frames (I can't say I was aware of any difference, but I don't know much about what goes on below-floor). But one of the features in this type of frame and Westinghouse A frames was the stud in the catch handle which was supposed to stop you pinching your fingers. I don't remember seeing that on any other frame type. Oh, and no raised rib in the quadrants.

So I don't see the big issue on identification.

As for the slightly different shape catch handles at Brandon, could not others off other frames (if they exist) of the same type be heated up and re-shaped to match? Surely the only reason they differ is that they came out of the foundry on a different day.

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Re: Cylindrical Catch Handles - Brandon

Unread postby RichardH » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:42 pm

It would be interesting to see pictures of the underfloor and locking arrangements, but the levers at Brandon do seem to have more of a backwards lean than apparent in pictures of the ‘typical’ GN Duplex frames – the fulcrum positions in the S&F 1888 and 1905 frames are somewhat different so this is probably the only way to identify more ‘Brandon’ type frames, if any, among those currently regarded as standard GN duplex examples. The quadrants of the 1888 frames are also nearly symmetrical, whilst the 1905 ones are noticeably raised at the rear – that the quadrants lack the cosmetic ribs of the S&F frames doesn’t matter as there is no suggestion it is a normal S&F 1888 frame, just that it is structurally similar.
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Re: Cylindrical Catch Handles - Brandon

Unread postby Fast Line Floyd » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:28 pm

RichardH wrote:It would be interesting to see pictures of the underfloor and locking arrangements, but the levers at Brandon do seem to have more of a backwards lean than apparent in pictures of the ‘typical’ GN Duplex frames – the fulcrum positions in the S&F 1888 and 1905 frames are somewhat different so this is probably the only way to identify more ‘Brandon’ type frames, if any, among those currently regarded as standard GN duplex examples. The quadrants of the 1888 frames are also nearly symmetrical, whilst the 1905 ones are noticeably raised at the rear – that the quadrants lack the cosmetic ribs of the S&F frames doesn’t matter as there is no suggestion it is a normal S&F 1888 frame, just that it is structurally similar.

PM me with your email address and I'll send them to you.
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Re: Cylindrical Catch Handles - Brandon

Unread postby Roger Bell » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:37 am

To bring this into context, as well as my close involvement with the Brandon frame, my comments on frame types and comparisons are based on information in " A Guide To Mechanical Locking Frames" published in 1989 by the Signalling Study Group. The authors include John Dixon with whom I have corresponded on this a couple of years ago. If anyone doesn't have a copy and is interested, I could scan the relevant pages and e mail them to you. I do have pictures of Brandon in situ too.

As Richard H says, the Brandon levers have a backwards lean and although the standards are symmetrical, the base casting has a built in "lean" towards the operator. Not all these types of base casting have this - but some have an greater lean built in.

Ashley - casting new ones is something we have considered but have not yet costed it.

Richard P - The Dutton catch handles are nearer than the GN duplex but still not easy to match up.

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Re: Cylindrical Catch Handles - Brandon

Unread postby John Hinson » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:04 pm

RichardH wrote:that the quadrants lack the cosmetic ribs of the S&F frames doesn’t matter as there is no suggestion it is a normal S&F 1888 frame, just that it is structurally similar.

Absolutely - the point I was making was that said book was quoted stating the types are difficult to differentiate which in my humble opinion suggests the author needs a pair of spectacles.

One should not rule out the possibility the Brandon frame was a "bitzer", I have heard that withdrawn frames were completely dismantled at Leyton and what came out of there was usually readily recognisable but was sometimes something of a mish-mash of types. Others had a substantial quantity of new parts (e.g new quadrants and standards but old levers).

I'm not even convinced that "GNR LEEDS" necessarily means it was made for or by the Great Northern Railway at Leeds. As far as I know all others showed the contractor's name.

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Re: Cylindrical Catch Handles - Brandon

Unread postby RichardH » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:46 pm

Many thanks to FLF for sending me pictures of the locking room.

I have to agree with Roger that the castings are of the S&F 1888 pattern, although the details vary slightly from the S&F ones I have seen, in particular the locking trays are mounted on non-integral brackets which are marked ‘GNR’. There also doesn’t seem to be any evidence that it has ever been fitted with duplex locking in its current form.
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